Dena Davidson [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to the Bible study pod. We are so excited because Pastor Mark Clark is joining us.
Mark Clark [00:00:05]:
Hey, yo, yo, yo, yo. Thanks for having me, guys.
Dena Davidson [00:00:07]:
You love this team that you're representing.
Mark Clark [00:00:08]:
I love this team.
Cameron Wells [00:00:09]:
The Oakland Raiders.
Mark Clark [00:00:10]:
Yeah, the Oakland Raiders and the Chiefs or whatever this is. Yeah, this is a 49ers jersey. We have a thing at the office today. We're all supposed to wear our jerseys, you know. Yeah, yeah. Tailgate teams changed, yada, yada, yada, but clearly they changed after because they take themselves more serious. So which is. Which is good, actually.
Dena Davidson [00:00:27]:
Literally don't.
Cameron Wells [00:00:27]:
I'm just ashamed of who I cheer for.
Mark Clark [00:00:29]:
Right? Oh, who do you cheer for? Talk about it. No, no, I want to talk about it.
Cameron Wells [00:00:33]:
The Indianapolis Colts.
Mark Clark [00:00:34]:
Oh, okay. Yeah. I have no reference point whether they're good or bad, but really great.
Cameron Wells [00:00:39]:
It's like the Canada of sports.
Mark Clark [00:00:41]:
Wow. What does that mean? Like, in regard to countries you want to talk about, like, our education system and our healthcare system being better than the U.S. you want to go through some stats or just live in your little American bubble for the rest of.
Dena Davidson [00:00:55]:
So fascinating enough, you've actually joined the Bible study, which, if you're newer to visit, you may. You may not recognize that, but thank you, Dina. Keep us addition to past Mark. We actually have Pastor Cameron Wells joining us from the adventure campus. So you were on the last episode, so I'm not going to give you a big bio. I'm just going to say go back and listen to that one.
Mark Clark [00:01:13]:
Love it.
Dena Davidson [00:01:13]:
Yeah. Great. Yeah. Okay. It's fun. Love it. All right, so we're in Ephesians 4. I'm going to read our passage, and then we're going to dive right in.
Mark Clark [00:01:20]:
Love it.
Dena Davidson [00:01:20]:
Ephesians 4. Picking up verse 17. So I tell you this, and I insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do. And the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed. That, however, is not the way of life. You learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
Dena Davidson [00:01:55]:
You were taught with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, to be made new in the attitude of your minds. And to put on the new self created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. All right, Mark, first, take what stands out to you from this passage. Help us properly understand it.
Mark Clark [00:02:15]:
Yeah. So 17, 18, talking about how there are. We're to no longer live as the Gentiles do. So first, Christianity is more than just like, a belief system, okay? It's more than just like, hey, I believe things about the deity of Christ and the Bible and God that are different than my neighbor. And because I believe those things, I am, ergo, a full biblical Christian. That's what some people think he's saying. No, there's actually a way of being in the world that is different than what you used to be or than the Gentiles. So there's.
Mark Clark [00:02:53]:
There's a whole. That's. That's a sermon, right? That's like, how. In what ways? Right? As I prep this this week, I'm like, okay, that's a sermon, like, because you could go, what are the eight ways that we have to be different in the way we are as human beings in the world than the world? You used to think about sexuality or money or family or work in these ways, but now you're supposed to do those. Vastly different in the world, right? So that's the one kind of thing, and then the other one that jumped out is the futility of their thinking. So if you underline that word, thinking, it's like, there's a whole realm of, like, you know, there's a. There's a book came out years ago called the. Oh, the Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.
Dena Davidson [00:03:40]:
Okay?
Mark Clark [00:03:40]:
Mark Null, and he is the opening line to that book is the scandal of the evangelical or the Christian mind is that there's not much of a Christian mind. Meaning we had this, like, long history of, like, 400 years where Christians were the sharpest people in town. They were the scientists exploring, saying, God created the world. Let's go explore science, let's go explore physics, let's go explore, you know, anthropology, all these things. They were the people who were the thinkers. They were the. They were the artists. You know, they were all the.
Mark Clark [00:04:13]:
All the thinking things, whether it's science or God or humanities, whatever. And now we're seen. At least, I don't know, it's fair. But we're seen as, like, the dumb people who, like, we don't like science, you know, whatever. And it's like, oh, what he's doing here is the futility of their thinking. Meaning when you become a Christian, there's a thinking Mind world that is no longer futile. Right. So anyway, so there's a whole world to go down in regard to.
Mark Clark [00:04:43]:
Christianity is a thinking thing, not just a feeling thing. And we love the feeling stuff. We like the sentimental, like how can we make you feel in church versus oh, we're going to talk about this or that, you know, whatever. So those are the two that pop. What do you guys think about those? I love it.
Dena Davidson [00:04:58]:
I really grabbed onto that phrase, the futility of their thinking. They're darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God. A couple years ago I had one of our staff members send me this clip of a really famous YouTube agnostic, or actually who's an atheist, prominent atheist. And he was making this whole argument from basically the hiddenness of God, saying I want to believe in God. I have opened myself to the truth of Christianity and I would love to believe in this God, but I simply cannot. And he was basically making this whole well reasoned argument that the God of the Christian religion can't exist because this God is a God of love. And he would have communicated himself to me because I'm open. And then I read a passage like this and the Bible says so clearly that we are darkened in our understanding.
Dena Davidson [00:05:51]:
Like this whole idea of a noble agnostic, a noble atheist who's open to the God of the universe and saying, please reveal yourself to me. That is not accurate self knowledge. Like what the Bible depicts us as is we don't have like a neutral stance towards God before we come into relationship with Jesus. We have this anti stance towards God. We love our sin, we love ourselves. We don't want the God of the universe to reach out to us. We want to continue in our path that leads to death. And so I was just struck by that because I think there are a lot of people who really do think that their neighbor going around is like God.
Dena Davidson [00:06:31]:
Why won't you reveal yourself to that person? Well, the truth is like the default position of the human mind is anti God. We're darkened in our understanding. So I was kind of caught by that. How about you, Cam?
Cameron Wells [00:06:43]:
Yeah, I love that everybody in life asks the same questions. Who am I? What am I here for? What you know, what's my purpose? But Paul in Ephesians lays out everything exactly opposite in the way that we go about it. So in Ephesians 1 and 2, he lays out who God is and what he's done for us. At the end of three, Paul starts to get into what the church is and who the church is and then after that, in four, he starts to get into the Christian. So he starts with Christ, he goes to the church and then the Christian.
Mark Clark [00:07:11]:
Right?
Dena Davidson [00:07:11]:
Yeah.
Cameron Wells [00:07:11]:
You have to start with God to understand who you are. You have to understand the church to understand what you're here to do. And then you get. But we want to start with us. It's like, let me find me and then I will find God. I found me several years ago, did not like what I found. And so, like, I love that he. It starts with God and then it goes to the church and then it goes to the individual.
Mark Clark [00:07:32]:
That's good.
Dena Davidson [00:07:33]:
That's so helpful. I love that. So talk to me about this verse. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality. Is Christianity rightly branded like an anti body religion? Like an anti. We don't like people to be happy. I think sometimes, like, we get the reputation that we're anti mind. Sometimes we get the reputation that we're anti body.
Dena Davidson [00:07:55]:
Like, it's just. Christianity is a flat no to everything. Right. So how should we rightly divide that passage? Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity. They are full of greed.
Mark Clark [00:08:12]:
Yeah. I think a few years ago I went through a bit of a revolution of this, reading a few different theologians who talked about the idea of like, you know, one theologian calls it Christian hedonism. And it's like the ultimate thing God is fighting for. And you can go to 50 different passages is your joy and your ultimate joy both in this life, because he knows how to give you a way of living that will create joy long term, but also eternal joy. That heaven is basically just the removal of every obstacle to your everlasting joy. Or the gospel is the removal of every obstacle to your everlasting joy, they say. So it's like we rarely talk about Christianity as God is fighting for your joy and your pleasure as the ultimate thing. Right.
Mark Clark [00:08:54]:
Like that's the, you know, the. You gotta. What's the Westminster Catechism opening line? The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. That, like, by getting God, you get joy. To your point, we rarely talk about the gospel like that. We talk about it like it's obedience. Right. Versus getting a treasure out of it.
Mark Clark [00:09:15]:
And so I think if we talked more about pleasure is not a bad thing to go after. It's just realizing God's the one who gave you all those pleasures to find him. But we, like, as C.S. lewis says, we stop Too early.
Cameron Wells [00:09:29]:
We're just like, oh, far too easily, please.
Mark Clark [00:09:31]:
Right? We just like, oh, this is fine. Money. Money's great. And it's like, no. Money is supposed to be a route to, like, the God of money who can give you generosity and then you use it to bless others. We're like, oh, no, we got money. So I think that. And then, of course, sensuality as impurity is what our culture, of course, is and promotes.
Mark Clark [00:09:51]:
Because, you know, marriage between two people, boring. But hey, go out after the lingerie models and, you know, have a different person every night. Woo, that's great. And obviously God's like, no, no, that's no good. But then I love this. And then he says, they're always full. They're also full of greed, which is, you know, the classic critique of the church is we rail against sexual sin in culture, but we rarely rail against greed in culture. Not only in culture, but in the church.
Mark Clark [00:10:19]:
Right. In ourselves. And so it's like, okay, why are you railing against this? But you don't rail against your own greed. And as Keller points out, he's like, sexual sin is very easy to put your finger on and go, oh, yeah, I did that. I woke up beside a woman and I'm like, oh, my gosh, you're not my wife. That's easy.
Cameron Wells [00:10:36]:
Not a lot of gray area.
Mark Clark [00:10:38]:
When did you become greedy? When? What line did you cross where you went from just like, I'm trying to provide for my family to now I'm greedy. It's very, very hard to figure out, which is why it's harder to talk about. So anyway, those are some.
Cameron Wells [00:10:52]:
Yeah, I love the thought of, like, that we stopped you short. We took our kids to Disney World a couple years ago, and we get to the Airbnb. Huge Airbnb. We had family from Australia meet us there.
Mark Clark [00:11:02]:
Sounds greedy. Camp sounds very greedy. Disneyland and a very big Airbnb all pitched in.
Cameron Wells [00:11:08]:
And our cousins have kids. My kids age, they're with their cousin, they don't get to see. There's got a pool, they got a hot tub. Their cousins are there. They thought like, this was the greatest.
Mark Clark [00:11:17]:
This is Disneyland. Yeah.
Cameron Wells [00:11:18]:
We wake up the next day and I'm like, get in the van. And my son goes, no, we're not going.
Mark Clark [00:11:23]:
Right.
Cameron Wells [00:11:24]:
Because he thought nothing could be better than this. He could not imagine the magic of Disney World. And it's like, so often we're like, I'm good, God. Like, you know, it's not fun to budget, it's not fun to eat. Well, but, like, those things lead you into more fullness of life.
Mark Clark [00:11:39]:
Yeah. That's great.
Cameron Wells [00:11:40]:
When you, you know, have balance.
Mark Clark [00:11:42]:
I love that. That's a great, great illustration.
Dena Davidson [00:11:44]:
So synthesizing what you're saying is basically, like, every no that God says is to lead us to the greater yes. Like, God has really great things in mind for us. And so when we find these no's, no's, nos no's. Like, it's not no for no reason. It's no because God has a bigger yes in mind. He has Disney World waiting for us, and we're just trying to be content with the Airbnb.
Mark Clark [00:12:05]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:12:05]:
There's a really great modernization of that CS Lewis yes quote about playing with mud pies.
Cameron Wells [00:12:10]:
Yeah. I think we tell people way too often, like, his goods greater than your good. Like, just sign up. But it's like, it's really hard to do that.
Dena Davidson [00:12:18]:
Oh, yeah.
Cameron Wells [00:12:18]:
It's really hard to actually believe that he could have a good that's better than my good.
Dena Davidson [00:12:23]:
It's crazy. There's. There's tons of research coming out right now about, like, our interactions with phones and devices and social media and how it's basically like, because our brains are constantly firing, that we can no longer get happiness, joy, and all these happy hormones from live human interactions because we've used them all up on our interactions with these devices. But the problem is that those devices eventually deplete your ability to feel. And I just see that is what the scripture is saying is you can go to these things that will give you the instant hit of happiness and joy that your soul was created for, but the cycle's gonna stop. Like, it's gonna have less and less of a return. So you're gonna get insensitive at some point, and you're gonna become numb and dead on the inside if you keep giving in to these fleshly pleasures. There's a greater yes that God has in mind for you.
Dena Davidson [00:13:18]:
I love that so much.
Mark Clark [00:13:20]:
And I think just this phrase, having lost all sensitivity is a scary one, because when. When you get to a place where you don't know what you don't know.
Dena Davidson [00:13:28]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:13:29]:
Like, I was thinking about this the other day. I'm like, what is it about Satan that's like. What do they call, like, what. What's the main attribute? They say they call him the deceiver.
Dena Davidson [00:13:39]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:13:41]:
So I kind of was just, like, challenging myself. Okay, just. Just stay on that for a second. What does that mean? Deceiver? And I'm like, the problem with deception, when You've been deceived so far when you don't even know it. That's the scary part. Deception so far that you don't know you're being deceived. It's like they're not even sensitive anymore to what you don't know. That's the scariest place to be because now you're just like, you don't even know.
Mark Clark [00:14:13]:
It's like, well, I don't understand what you're saying because you're so desensitized. Ties to it. It's like people, you know, the whole Holy Spirit, like, people like, did I blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? My New Testament professor goes, well, do you, do you. Are you nervous about it?
Dena Davidson [00:14:24]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:14:24]:
Do you care? And they're like, yeah. And he's like, okay, then you have.
Dena Davidson [00:14:27]:
Right, exactly.
Mark Clark [00:14:28]:
The people who have. They don't care. They don't even know.
Dena Davidson [00:14:30]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:14:30]:
They lost all sensitivity.
Cameron Wells [00:14:32]:
Who goes, yeah, I am actively being deceived in life.
Mark Clark [00:14:35]:
Like, I'm good with it. It's like nobody thinks right now. Yeah, it's. It's a scary place to be.
Dena Davidson [00:14:41]:
And anyone who's been inside and this is a crazy form of like deception. But anyone who's been inside of a cult, they will say is that like this one thing that united them is their certainty that they were right. You know, that they didn't have doubt. They were so completely convinced and within the deception. So that is a scary thought.
Cameron Wells [00:15:02]:
I was listening to somebody, PhD doctor, and he was like, I'm very skeptical of people who speak in definitives who say, always, you know, he's like most professionals, more. Most experts in their fields don't talk in that kind of language because they understand in life there's so much complexity, complexity and nuance. They could be wrong. So they use those words very sparingly. So I feel like anytime people are like black and white, this is it. It's like, you should probably pump the brakes a little bit.
Dena Davidson [00:15:30]:
So how does that. And this is not within the text, but I think a good follow up question. How does that relate to how Christians are supposed to talk about the certainty of what God has revealed? Like, is there a different level of we should be certain and speak in certain language the things that God has revealed versus the things that, like Mark is convicted about that Mark thinks that he's understanding? Like, how do we walk that line? Because I think the gospel writers talk in certain language. But then I appreciate what you're saying about we need to be careful about speaking in Those absolutes. Like, we should have some epistemic humility is like, a phrase that would be used in this field. I. Dina might get it wrong, but that doesn't mean that the Gospel is wrong. Even if Dina got it wrong.
Mark Clark [00:16:16]:
That's good. Yeah. No, that's great. I think. I think everything's open. You know, you have, like, the. The classic, like, orthodox pale of orthodoxy. Jesus is God.
Mark Clark [00:16:25]:
The Bible's real. Heaven and hell are real. Jesus really rose from the dead. You have these things that are like, hey, we're going to speak uncertainty about these, because we think the Bible's very, very clear.
Dena Davidson [00:16:34]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:16:35]:
And history is very, very clear and all the stuff. But everything else is like, I don't know. You know, all the secondary doctrines.
Dena Davidson [00:16:41]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:16:42]:
The second coming of Christ and your view on women and leadership and tongues and healings and what happened yesterday and this. All the. All the secondary. Like, we should be able to sit around and yell at each other and debate it and then walk away as friends and be like, yeah, that was crazy. That passage is so confusing. That's crazy. And not be like, no, this is what the text says, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, so the certainty is it's almost dependent on, like, what we're talking about.
Dena Davidson [00:17:05]:
Yeah.
Cameron Wells [00:17:06]:
You know, it just feels like. I feel like where we've gone wrong, both spiritually, but then also even politically, everything feels like it's become essential.
Dena Davidson [00:17:14]:
Yes.
Cameron Wells [00:17:15]:
Like, we can't even. We can't even go. Let's discuss this secondary.
Mark Clark [00:17:18]:
Right.
Cameron Wells [00:17:18]:
No tenet of the faith. And it's like, no, this is. If you don't. If you're on board with this, we can't even.
Mark Clark [00:17:22]:
Right.
Cameron Wells [00:17:23]:
It's like, how did we.
Dena Davidson [00:17:24]:
I have a theory about that. I think it's really just this human tendency to have shortcuts. So it's like the world is so complex, and we're always looking, like, for the litmus test of true Christianity, and it changes from generation to generation. Like, do you actually believe in the word of God? Well, tell me what you think is the right interpretation of Genesis. Right. Like, that was the litmus test, like, a couple decades ago. Every generation has its litmus test. And I think what you're saying, Mark, is very helpful.
Dena Davidson [00:17:52]:
Like, we need to be careful of those particular generational litmus tests. Let's go back to the old school. Like, the things that for the last 2000 years of Christianity have been settled, and let's camp on those.
Cameron Wells [00:18:05]:
Yeah. One thing that I've been telling myself recently is heaven will not be full of people who are right. It will be full of people who were forgiven. And it's like the goal here on earth is not to get this equation right. It's to realize I've been forgiven. God loves me and gives all throughout Ephesians. Grace, grace, grace.
Dena Davidson [00:18:25]:
So good. I even love that coming from Ephesians 4, earlier in the chapter, this. This whole picture of the body of Christ speaking the truth in love. And then he heads into this passage where he's gonna, like, highlight some sins that we need to be careful.
Cameron Wells [00:18:38]:
Some truth in love.
Dena Davidson [00:18:39]:
Speaking of which, friends, I love that. Okay, so he goes on, in verse 20, he says that, however, this way that the Gentiles live and think that, however is not the way of life. You learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught with regard to your former way of life to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, to be made new in the attitude of your minds, and to put on the new self created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. My question for this part of the text is, I think it's very hard to understand how we are new, and yet we still have to, like, be taking off the old self and putting on the new. So, like, help us understand basic sanctification language that's going on here. What does it mean that we are justified currently, but we still have these processes that we have to do as believers.
Mark Clark [00:19:36]:
Yeah, I think that's the exactly what you were talking about in regard to, like, the church figuring out the grace behind how we even treat people. Like, I remember when I first started going to church, I was smoker. And so the people in the church would see me smoking behind the church and go, well, he's not a Christian. And they'd walk up to Aaron and say, he's not a Christian anyway. What do you mean he's not? Well, he's a smoker. So I smoked till I was like, 24. I'd already been finished Bible college. I was like a youth pastor.
Mark Clark [00:20:09]:
I'm sitting there smoking, getting up like, okay, kids, open up your Bibles. We're gonna talk about, you know, and it was like, there was this. But, you know, I say that, but then you go, you know, someone walked up to Aaron and said, you know, he smokes, and he's like, what was he smoking? Was he smoking weed? No. Oh, cigarettes. Yeah. That's a sanctification. You know, that's like he's better. So you never judge a person where they are, you judge where they come from.
Mark Clark [00:20:31]:
And it's like if the church is a bunch of people who are, yes, your identity is new, Dina, new self. But also there's an outworking of that. Then there's a lot of, to your point earlier, a lot of grace in the community to be like, yeah, they're, they're still working on working out this new identity. They are something like categorically, I think when a Christian moves from, they move from sinner to saint in regard to categories. But it doesn't mean they don't sin. It just means they are no longer a sinner in the sense of the category of sinner. They are new. But there's, there's still some work, you know, going on.
Cameron Wells [00:21:14]:
So, so this happened to us this week. I woke up four in the morning and I was hot. Which, you know, means that something with the AC has gone terribly wrong. So our AC was out. I tried to fix it, spent all morning on it. Finally got to the point where I thought it was still working, but had to call somebody. He comes, he's looking at it and he's, you know, flipping it on, flipping it off, he's got it pulled open and he goes, well, this is weird. He says every time you run your ac, your heater is running at the same time.
Cameron Wells [00:21:43]:
So I said, you mean as my house is cooling down, it's also trying to heat up? And he's like, yeah, your AC is having to fight your heater. And so it's like on earth, we've got those two things firing at the same time in our lives. Yeah. And through the sanctification work of Jesus, it's enough to overcome that heater. Right. And what he did that day was he actually disconnected our heater. And he's like, here's the long term fix, but before winter. I can't do that in my life.
Cameron Wells [00:22:10]:
Only that side of heaven is going to do that in me. It's going to disconnect that piece of me. That will no longer be necessary. But it's like we have these two things fighting for temperate control in our home. And one is empowering the other.
Dena Davidson [00:22:24]:
It's really good. And I think a huge part of the gospel is just that God works within human choices. Like, he gives us freedom, he values freedom. You know, most theologians are not crazy determinists. Like, God decided you were going to have water today instead of Diet Coke. Like, we have freedom and God works within our freedom to produce the Character that matches his son. So every, every decision, I think it makes it a really holy moment. And I.
Dena Davidson [00:22:54]:
Speaking of the Westminster Catechism, there's this image from the catechism that stuck with me. I did it when I was in, like, I think I was sixth grade. And I felt, yeah, go homeschool.
Mark Clark [00:23:04]:
Yeah, yeah. Hey, there you go.
Dena Davidson [00:23:07]:
Westminster Catechism.
Mark Clark [00:23:07]:
This episode is brought to you by Homeschool for California. Westminster Catechism in sixth grade.
Dena Davidson [00:23:13]:
So I was doing the Westminster Catechism, and honestly, it was a really discouraging time of my life because I was like, I know Jesus, but I keep getting in lots of trouble from my parents. And how is this working? Because I've known Jesus since I was a little kid. This is like the thoughts I'm having as a 12 year old. And the image was of a person that gets dunked in a vat of mud and they like, they slip and they fall in the vat of mud and then they get out, but it's dark where they are. So they start walking towards the light. And as they walk towards the light, they start brushing themselves off. I said, that's what it is to be in the sanctification process is it's not till you get to the light that you really understand how muddy and dirty you are. So every step you take towards Jesus, you're gonna see that there are more.
Dena Davidson [00:23:59]:
Like, there's more that needs to rub off of you. But that doesn't mean you're worse off. It just means that you're closer to the light. And so I think it's a good word to us and we're sliding into application. But I think reading this passage, we shouldn't just assume, oh, well, obviously we're the mature Christians, so we're done with that sensuality. Our thinking has been transformed already. Thank goodness I'm no longer like the Gentiles. I think it's a good moment for us to pause getting closer to Jesus, who's the source of that light, and say, God, what is in me that you want to brush off? Like, what do you want to take off of me? Because as I get closer to you, I want to become actually more like you put on that new self.
Dena Davidson [00:24:42]:
So if you had one application thought.
Mark Clark [00:24:44]:
Yeah, to that point, I think that's a really good point. I remember years ago, I was asked to come speak at a summer camp for a Christian school. The Christian school went up and it was like the start of their year. It wasn't summer camp. They went up to a Whole cabin area. And they went up and There was like 200 students there. And they wanted me to preach for three days or something. So I'm up there and I'm preaching about everything, Bubba.
Mark Clark [00:25:04]:
But as I'm up there every night, there was this group of kids, different kids that would come up to me and they'd be like, hey, man, I just got to tell you something. Like, I'm just looking at porn all day, and I don't care about any of this. And, you know, next group's like, I just smoke weed all the time and my parents don't know, and I'm getting into this stuff and, you know, I want to have sex with all them people and blah, blah, blah. And it's just like. And then there's one, two nights there was, like, demons. Like, there was girl, like, getting prayed over. It's like, like, so crazy stuff. So I remember going back to my church the next week and I told him the story.
Mark Clark [00:25:35]:
And I said, now, there's two ways to interpret this story. The one way is to say, how did all these messed up, imperfect kids end up in this Christian school? Because what. What kind of process do we have here? Review the missions. Let's what? Yeah, what kind of questions did you ask? You something random in this school? These crazy kids. Or you can say that the king. When the kingdom of God decides to drop and the pressure starts to be applied that all the sin starts rising to the top as this good thing pressures down, and then the church starts to show itself as like, oh, dang, that person's doing this. It's not like, oh, dang, you out. It's like, oh, God's moving the Holy Spirit starting to burn some stuff out of you, and it's going to be hard and painful and difficult, but that's a sign of God moving versus a sign of not God moving.
Mark Clark [00:26:32]:
You know? So I just thought of that when you were explaining that going closer to Jesus and you start to see more, not less.
Dena Davidson [00:26:40]:
Yes. And if that hasn't happened in our lives, if we haven't felt any sense of conviction of sin and in the last, like, few months, scary, then we're not. We're being probably more darkened in our understanding than being transformed.
Mark Clark [00:26:53]:
Scary.
Cameron Wells [00:26:54]:
That's what I love. Like, through most of the epistles, Paul, you know, he opens prisoner of the Lord, chief of sinners. You know, he's like, I'm the worst of the worst. And it's like, Paul at no point believed that anybody needed the cross more than him. And I feel like, to what you were just saying, Dina. Cause he's talking about identity here. And, like, if you start to believe that other people need Jesus more than you, you've lost the place. And I think he reminds them of where they came from.
Cameron Wells [00:27:18]:
Not for shame and not to go. You know, I always talk about, you know, when. When you're getting disciplined growing up, right? It's not the sit there and think.
Mark Clark [00:27:25]:
About what you've done.
Cameron Wells [00:27:26]:
He brings it up to go sit there and think about what he's done. But, like, you should see everybody else as less deserving of the cross than me, because nobody needs Jesus more than me. And if that's your outlook in life, you'll be able to love people well.
Mark Clark [00:27:37]:
And that's so good.
Dena Davidson [00:27:39]:
And as soon as you remember the plot, like, you're saying, like, it's so easy to extend grace to other people, like, and you can be the type of person who can speak the truth in love because you're like, let me tell you, to use your phraseology, what a disaster I am.
Mark Clark [00:27:52]:
I am a moron.
Dena Davidson [00:27:53]:
I am a moron. And that's why I need to be saved. And so do you. And there's no shame in this conversation.
Mark Clark [00:27:59]:
Really helpful, by the way, in that preaching. We did a preach off today in staffing, and it was just terrible on my end. But the rule that they said I was going to have to follow on paper was they said, okay, the rule you're going to have to follow is you're not allowed to call your anybody a moron or a disaster. And I was like, oh, it's going to be easy. And then they flip. And I'm the only one of the three, by the way, that didn't know the passage. I said, what? Oh, yeah. No.
Mark Clark [00:28:24]:
So they.
Dena Davidson [00:28:25]:
This was rigged.
Mark Clark [00:28:26]:
And he asked, he said, do you want to know the passage? And both of them said, yes. And they went off for half an hour and did some stuff. I said no. Out of hubris or just a lack of time. I don't know what.
Cameron Wells [00:28:37]:
You were darkened in your understanding?
Mark Clark [00:28:38]:
I was very dark. And I figured he's gonna throw some passage at me, that I'm gonna be able to figure something out.
Dena Davidson [00:28:44]:
Man. That was a.
Mark Clark [00:28:45]:
To eliminate stories. Imagine how many stories we've just told around this circle, okay? This guy can't open his mouth without going, my kids run to Disneyland. I'm the same. So I'm not allowed to tell any personal stories. And the passage is insane.
Dena Davidson [00:29:00]:
It was insane. Insane, yes.
Mark Clark [00:29:02]:
And I not even quotable on the Bible study, but it was a good. It was a good. It was God humbling and going, ah, maybe you do pay a little more attention.
Dena Davidson [00:29:10]:
You lost it at the end, but you had the gospel in the middle.
Mark Clark [00:29:13]:
I had it. And the other Jason, I, I know, think said the word Jesus. By the way, I'm not sure Jason had any gospel in his. Yes. I thought they were going to do a review after these things and be like, that was it. So I don't think Jason mentioned Jesus, but he did do a review.
Dena Davidson [00:29:26]:
I think you were destined to lose when they put Kevin in charge of it. I think it was.
Mark Clark [00:29:30]:
It was a setup.
Dena Davidson [00:29:30]:
It was.
Mark Clark [00:29:31]:
It was fun. It was fun. Anyway, sorry, you're completely lost.
Dena Davidson [00:29:34]:
We're talking about staff meeting. We had a pre show video and you'll see. You know, it was. It was a really fun moment. But we are continuing next week. Kurt will be back. So. Yeah, I know that you love these episodes when he's not here because you love me, right? So go tell Pastor Kurt that he's a lot.
Mark Clark [00:29:50]:
You do a great job, Dina.
Dena Davidson [00:29:51]:
No, you have to laugh at that. Otherwise it just seems like.
Mark Clark [00:29:54]:
Okay, okay, okay.
Dena Davidson [00:29:56]:
Now we laugh. All right, friends, we will see you next week on the Bible study Pod.