Curt Harlow [00:00:00]:
Hello, my friend, and welcome back to the Bible Study pod. And man, I want to tell you this is going to be fun because actually at the beginning of the first iteration of this podcast, one of our most frequent people was my friend right across the street here, Mr. Mark Clark. How you doing, Mark?
Mark Clark [00:00:17]:
Thanks for having me, sir. The Bible study, the one and only. The only Bible study you should be watching or leaning into. This one right here.
Curt Harlow [00:00:26]:
It's like the Ohio State of Bible Studies.
Mark Clark [00:00:28]:
Okay. You're doing a great job on this.
Curt Harlow [00:00:31]:
New to POD is we just want to open up the Bible in the passages that we're actually teaching on the weekend at all of our campuses here at Bayside and just explore what it means to be a great Bible study person. The hermeneutics, the rules you use to get the right interpretation, the exegesis, the attitude you bring to the text of saying, we want the real original meaning, not our agenda presuppositions. And we are in to that end. Acts 27. You're not supposed to have favorite parts.
Mark Clark [00:01:00]:
Right.
Curt Harlow [00:01:01]:
But I Love Acts 27.
Mark Clark [00:01:02]:
Okay.
Curt Harlow [00:01:02]:
It's the whole. The coming of the storm. Yes, in the storm. And then the shipwreck.
Mark Clark [00:01:08]:
Right.
Curt Harlow [00:01:09]:
And you know, not to be too allegorical.
Mark Clark [00:01:12]:
Sure.
Curt Harlow [00:01:12]:
A lot of storms in life. There's a lot of good stuff here and how Paul responded to that. Okay, I'm going to jump right into the passage here, Mark. We're going to go from verse four. The context before verse four is Paul has finished all three missionary journeys. He's gone back to Jerusalem instead of being embraced in Jerusalem, man, everyone has got an issue with him. This creates a great uproar. He's arrested for other people's uproariness.
Curt Harlow [00:01:37]:
And the Romans are like, we don't know what to charge you with, but we know we don't want you out in public. And Paul says, I demand to go to Rome and be tried as a Roman citizen. So Julius, a very authoritative centurion, is put in charge of Paul. They get on a boat, then they're on another boat and we pick up the story when the storm begins to build.
Mark Clark [00:02:00]:
So yes, Love it.
Curt Harlow [00:02:01]:
Verse 4. Just retail 12 here. If you're following along, I hope you are. Get out your Bible 27:4. If you're driving, please don't do that. As always. Okay, here we go. Verse 4.
Curt Harlow [00:02:12]:
From there we. That's Luke writing, put out to the sea again and passed to the lee of Cyprus because the winds were against us when we had sailed across the open sea off the coast of Sicilia and pamper Philia. We ended at Myra in Lycia. There a centurion found an Alexandrian, that's Egyptian ship, sailing for Italy and put us on board. We made slow headway for many days and had difficulty arriving off Cindas. When the wind did not allow us to hold our course. We sailed for the Lee of Crete, opposite of Salmone. We moved along the coast without.
Curt Harlow [00:02:55]:
With difficulty, I mean, and came to the place called Fair Havens, near the town of Lesia. Much had been lost and sailing had already become dangerous because by now it was the day after atonement read there, late October. So Paul warned them, men, I can see that our voyage is going to be disastrous and bring great loss to ship and cargo and to our own lives also. But the centurion, instead of listening to what Paul said, followed the advice of the pilot and of the owner of the ship. Since the harbor was unsuitable to winter in, the majority, decided that we should sail on, hoping to reach Phoenix and winter there. This was a harbor in Crete facing both southwest and northwest. All right, if you were just sitting down, Mark Clark, you're in your, you're in your backyard, beautiful Northern California, and you're studying the Bible. What is the first idea of approaching this passage and going, what? How do I study this passage?
Mark Clark [00:04:01]:
Yeah, I mean, this is a great example of a passage that I'm not sure. This one's on your, on your, your, your fridge at home, you know, I'm not sure. You're like, yep, that's the one.
Curt Harlow [00:04:11]:
There's no Precious Moments collections.
Mark Clark [00:04:14]:
They're moving to Salome and through Creonius. It's like. But so here's, here's the first thing I would do. I would go, man, why, why is Luke telling us these details? And what you and I both know, because we're apologetics guys, is there's a great point to be made here about the boring verses are the verses that the Christians sometimes don't like but the skeptics need.
Curt Harlow [00:04:42]:
That's so good, right?
Mark Clark [00:04:43]:
And so the skeptic is looking at this and if Christianity is just this made up thing, then we don't need these, these people and these places. We don't need the islands, we don't need any of this. But Luke is framing Christianity in light of historical places, archaeological legitim evidence, people, rulers, wind direction, wind direction, different islands. And I was reading an archaeologist and he talked about, I forget the exact number, but he said something between Luke and Ax, there's 96 he had all these stats, 96 islands, 14 cities, you know, whatever it is. And none of them are wrong from like an archaeological. So the skeptic first off showing these, talking to a skeptic friend and going, you know what, this actually makes the Bible legitimate versus other religions where you don't get these details. If you've, you know, if you've read some of it's just esoteric teachings on here's how to connect your soul to the universe and here's who God is. Which is great but they don't root it in history.
Mark Clark [00:05:42]:
So I think that's one great thing for these boring verses. Yeah. Does that make sense?
Curt Harlow [00:05:46]:
I always say what were Hansel and Gretel's, what was their address, what street did they live?
Mark Clark [00:05:52]:
Right. Yeah. Why.
Curt Harlow [00:05:53]:
So Louis C.S. lewis talks about fabilization. So this is the much accused accusation against the Bible. Even before I was a Christian I had zero Bible knowledge, didn't know the difference to the Old and New Testament. Somehow I'd picked up on this idea that the Bible had been altered multiple times and had been fabilized. I even thought, I can remember thinking that Jesus was not a historical character. He was several first century heroes that have been compiled together an archetype of. Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:06:23]:
And it was all good lessons and wonderful and helpful but it was, it was a very fancy Hansel and Gretel. Yeah. And this is the direct like what Lewis says is anyone accuses the. The New Testament especially of being. Or the Gospels especially of being fable has never read fable.
Mark Clark [00:06:42]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:06:43]:
Because this doesn't read like fable. We don't need to know Hansel and Gretel's address. We don't need to know if they're wearing later Hosen or Levi's.
Mark Clark [00:06:50]:
Right.
Curt Harlow [00:06:51]:
We just need to know that stay away from cannibalistic candy offering witches. That's all we need to know. Crate PR this is Luke going. See we switch back to the we here. Yeah. This is Luke going. I want to tell you all of the experiences we had because there yeah I, I literally hear Luke saying man, if we'd only pulled in there if we had got to Fair Haven. And then the other thing I love about this is that it, it smashes together several groups.
Curt Harlow [00:07:23]:
And I always think this way when I'm especially in acts smashes together several groups that are not normally smashed together. So you have Paul traveling with two Greeks. You have the Jewish raised in Jerusalem from Turkey but raised in Jerusalem. Paul traveling with two Greeks overseen by a pretty benevolent. But still he's their prison keeper, Julius, the commander on board a merchant ship that's got a load of wheat from Egypt that it's bringing to Italy. That this guy, unless he gets this week from Egypt to Italy, he doesn't get paid and no one on his boat gets paid. And, and how do, how do decisions get made?
Mark Clark [00:08:05]:
Yeah, yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:08:06]:
When you put all that crew together.
Mark Clark [00:08:08]:
Here's the other thing I love about this passage. If you're, if you, if you're a Christian, you're reading these passages and you're bored. Not only is good for skeptic, I think about trying to get your brain into like great storytelling where it's like, like think about, right? Think about like Homer's Odyssey. Right. I'm sure we don't read that on the daily, but it's one of the great stories ever told. The point where Christopher Nolan is making a movie about it right now. He's gonna retell the Odyssey story. They're shooting it all over Italy.
Mark Clark [00:08:32]:
They're shooting it all. It's going to be Christopher Nolan.
Curt Harlow [00:08:34]:
It's gonna be close up. He's gonna like, I am Homer.
Mark Clark [00:08:37]:
I am Odysseus. Yeah. And so Matt Damon is playing Odysseus. And it's gonna be.
Curt Harlow [00:08:42]:
I didn't know.
Mark Clark [00:08:43]:
Yeah. Oh, it's gonna be. Everybody's on it. Everybody's in it. Right. So it's going to be in day. All, all the big actors and they're out in ships and there's all these behind the scenes shots right now of them on the water and they're dressed up and all these. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
Mark Clark [00:08:56]:
It's coming out next year. But, but the point of that is, is like we miss the fact that these stories, these Homer stories, these. Where they're sailing around in ships to these different islands and having adventures. Like that was the Netflix, that was the Stranger Things of the time. Like that's what you would read.
Curt Harlow [00:09:14]:
Right, right.
Mark Clark [00:09:15]:
That's what these, these epic travel narratives or retell.
Curt Harlow [00:09:19]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:09:20]:
And. And this is like, this is a travel narrative. This is like, you know, there and back. Where are we going? And so anyway, that's what this is. It's the. We're on a ship, we're moving. Like we get bored by it. But this is actually great storytelling.
Mark Clark [00:09:33]:
If you look at it through the vantage point of the great stories of all time that have swept up the hearts of people are these travel narratives of people going around in danger. They need to go to these, you know, anyway, so that's, that's the other layer.
Curt Harlow [00:09:45]:
So one of the things I, you always say, and I, I, I love saying this too, but I've, I've heard this theme out of you so many times is when you read, when you study the Bible, who are you in the story? And so it's probably good practice to put yourself in the place of every single person in the story. But who hermeneutically, to get the proper idea, who should you be in this story? So I think the temptation is to be Paul or Luke.
Mark Clark [00:10:13]:
Sure, of course.
Curt Harlow [00:10:14]:
So, you know, Paul is the persecuted great missionary. And he, by the way, this is not a supernatural word of God. His warning here. This is Paul saying, it's October. No one sails in November.
Mark Clark [00:10:26]:
Right.
Curt Harlow [00:10:26]:
And very few sail in October. And September's already gone, guys. Right. And, and so put yourself. But I wonder if you're a business person out there, you put yourself in the pilot or the ownership.
Mark Clark [00:10:40]:
Yes, yes.
Curt Harlow [00:10:40]:
And go. Have I ever made a foolish decision? Because I'm just worried. And of course not to spoil. They lose the cargo anyway.
Mark Clark [00:10:49]:
Right.
Curt Harlow [00:10:50]:
Or you put yourself in the employee, the, the boat hands position because it says the majority voted here. We have a little Greek democracy rearing its head here. And they went, oh, yeah, I don't want a winner in Phoenix.
Mark Clark [00:11:06]:
Right. Which I thought we all wanted the winter Phoenix, by the way.
Curt Harlow [00:11:09]:
It's a different Phoenix.
Mark Clark [00:11:11]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:11:12]:
And they, yeah, let's keep moving.
Mark Clark [00:11:14]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:11:15]:
How often do we make a poor decision because of other forces compelling us? So the Roman. Let's put ourselves at Julius's seat. He is a man of duty. He's. It's not malicious. It's obvious here. He's not malicious. But is he going, man, what happens to my reputation? He's a centurion.
Curt Harlow [00:11:34]:
There's a lot. Some commentators will say he, this particular group that he was centurion over, very famous. And he would add direct access to Caesar. Is he going, this is going to hurt my reputation and she should trust me.
Mark Clark [00:11:45]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:11:46]:
And so all these forces that get us to make stupid decisions.
Mark Clark [00:11:50]:
That's good.
Curt Harlow [00:11:51]:
If we put ourselves in these people's spot, we'll go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done that before.
Mark Clark [00:11:56]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:11:56]:
Worried about the checkbook. This is very similar to whenever I tell Kelly, I think we can DIY this project at home.
Mark Clark [00:12:04]:
Sure.
Curt Harlow [00:12:05]:
And then I spend a lot of money to.
Mark Clark [00:12:07]:
More money than you ever would have to just buy it.
Curt Harlow [00:12:09]:
Yes. And then I have to call in the guy, the contractor anyway.
Mark Clark [00:12:13]:
Yes, yes.
Curt Harlow [00:12:13]:
So I end up paying both bills.
Mark Clark [00:12:16]:
Because I've done that multiple times.
Curt Harlow [00:12:17]:
Because a lack of discernment. So a lot of times I think we're great at teaching faith when to take a risk for God.
Mark Clark [00:12:24]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:12:25]:
We lack saying, gosh darn, this is a whole discernment foul here.
Mark Clark [00:12:29]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:12:29]:
Discernment is when not to take a risk for God.
Mark Clark [00:12:32]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:12:32]:
And here.
Mark Clark [00:12:33]:
Okay, so here's the other thing that popped to me as I was reading this. And this is the preacher in us, right? We're always looking at this hermeneutically going, okay, great history. But our people are just trying to keep their marriages together and not be fired from work and, you know, not look at bad things in the Internet. So what do we do with them?
Curt Harlow [00:12:48]:
The two big problems facing America.
Mark Clark [00:12:51]:
So there's this. There's this. They're sailing. It's become dangerous. So much time had been lost, you know, so you get into like, hey, do you ever feel like you've wasted. You get to the end of your life and you're 70 and let's just make. Let's live from backwards Ecclesiastes. Let's make sure, you know, if your kids are super young right now, there's going to be a day when they're out of the house.
Mark Clark [00:13:09]:
So make sure you appreciate them and you don't lose the time. You know, there's things like that that are popping, but one of the ones that hit me was, and this is a bit of a deep point, so verse 10 men. I see that our voyage going to be disastrous. Right. So this is one of my favorite words on the planet as a preacher is you're a disaster and you're all a wreck and blah, blah, blah. And I tell people this all the time and people kind of, well, you know, they make fun of it, blah, blah. But recently, and just give me a moment here, I wrote this book, just came out. This is not a promo, by the way, called the Problem of Life.
Mark Clark [00:13:37]:
But there's a. So let me. Just a paragraph. Okay, let me read a paragraph. Because sometimes I think what happens is, here's Paul and he's being Mr. Negative, okay?
Curt Harlow [00:13:48]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:13:48]:
This is going to be a disaster.
Curt Harlow [00:13:50]:
He's. He's Debbie Downer.
Mark Clark [00:13:51]:
He's Debbie Downer. Yeah. So what we tend to do is go Debbie Downers. Like, you shouldn't listen to Debbie Downers. Like, we were. We do debriefs for things and we're like, let's keep it. Let's make sure we're doing that.
Curt Harlow [00:14:03]:
And then someone, you know, no villains. Yeah. Let's.
Mark Clark [00:14:06]:
So here, here's an interesting psychological study I came across while I was writing this book and this stood out to me as I, as I just read this. So psychologist James Davies calls it the Importance of suffering, saying that it is a mistake to interpret a patient who suffers from low self esteem or feelings of worthlessness as simply suffering from distorted thinking patterns or thinking errors. Instead, what if our negative thoughts about ourselves are actually right? The feeling of being cowardly may not be faulty thinking at all, but an accurate appraisal of part of us that is cowardly facing that reality. The psychologist says rather than denying it, it's the prerequisite to changing. He then points out that many people instead of being plagued with low self esteem, are actually plagued with self love. So much so that they're unable to love others and cannot see beyond the horizon of their own needs and concerns. The prevailing view that the depressed person tends to distort reality in a negative way may be wrong. And then I end the paragraph with this quote.
Mark Clark [00:15:13]:
Research has turned this wisdom in on its head saying that it's not the depressive who distorts reality, but the so called healthy population because they remove the positive self biases that are seen in the non depressed.
Curt Harlow [00:15:28]:
Well, that is, isn't that crazy? That's a tonic for our culture. Right, right there.
Mark Clark [00:15:33]:
It's like we always think the guy going this is going to be a disaster is oh what's his, he's got low self esteem, he's got reality distortion.
Curt Harlow [00:15:41]:
Hit a self help book in your life and do it.
Mark Clark [00:15:44]:
And it's like sometimes. No, it's that you are a coward.
Curt Harlow [00:15:48]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:15:48]:
And that's the prerequisite to changing.
Curt Harlow [00:15:50]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:15:51]:
So instead when someone says I'm a coward, don't just say oh no, you're not, you're a good guy. Remember that time I saw you? It's like, no, letting them sit in, that may be the foundation of them changing and becoming less cowardly.
Curt Harlow [00:16:05]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:16:06]:
So anyway, I just thought, kind of jumped out at me.
Curt Harlow [00:16:08]:
By the way, this is, that was not a promo. This is great book by the way. What I love about this book is it has all the content in it you'd want. For who? Who are we really?
Mark Clark [00:16:19]:
Sure.
Curt Harlow [00:16:20]:
Yeah, but it's beautiful. There's some beauty in there. You don't leave it going, oh, what a horrible problem that we're all flawed.
Mark Clark [00:16:26]:
Yes.
Curt Harlow [00:16:27]:
You leave it going. This is more complex, this thing called life. And there's some beautifulness in the problem.
Mark Clark [00:16:33]:
Oh, thank you.
Curt Harlow [00:16:34]:
So anyway, I really mean that.
Mark Clark [00:16:35]:
So I guess my point here is he sees the disaster, he calls it out and actually that can be a good thing. And sometimes you need people in your life that are going to call out the disaster.
Curt Harlow [00:16:45]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:16:45]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:16:46]:
So Brady, last point. Brady Bobbick is an incredible, faithful Western Washington University in Washington State. He was there for 40 plus years, just reaching students. No one will ever know his name. There's never in any global conferences, and he'll be ahead of me by three miles in the kingdom line to meet Jesus. So he would say this. Paul said, do not think of yourself more highly than you ought. And so he said, what is that? What is that standard in Christianity? It's one of the most direct self concept statements.
Curt Harlow [00:17:18]:
And he said the standard of Christianity is not high self esteem. I'm great, I can overcome everything. I have no flaws. I am. You are and darn it, people love you. That sort of thing. It's also not low self esteem. Don't think of yourself higher than you ought.
Curt Harlow [00:17:38]:
Sure. So it's not, I'm a horrible, depraved sinner with no redeemable qualities. So he'd say that standard of Christianity self concept is not low or high. It's objectivity. What's the truth? Yes, what is the truth? The truth is I have a problem with bravery. The truth is I'm easily swayed by crowds. The truth is I, you know, I grew up in a large family and when you happens you grow up in a large family is you just want to be seen. So that's why I talk too much.
Curt Harlow [00:18:07]:
I know I've used it for some good, but you know, it's, it's one.
Mark Clark [00:18:11]:
Of the great talkers of the 21st century.
Curt Harlow [00:18:14]:
So early on in my career here at Bayside, Ray said we're gonna do, everyone's gonna do 360s and it's gonna cost like 6 or $700 for this group to do a 360 on everyone at the, at the senior pastor level. I said, I'll save you the money. It's gonna come back. Curt's a nice guy, he talks too much. That's what it's gonna come back. And because that from third grade report card on.
Mark Clark [00:18:34]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:18:35]:
So. And I've always thought that is so healthy and good objectivity. What?
Mark Clark [00:18:39]:
Yes. But if everyone said to you no, you don't just be a, you don't talk too much, they're not going to help you.
Curt Harlow [00:18:45]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark [00:18:46]:
That's good.
Curt Harlow [00:18:47]:
Yeah, yeah. On the other hand, I've gone. And I love what you had to say. Say it less. Yeah, it's a very good piece of advice for me. Okay. The verse that popped out of me and then I want to hear your comment on this. We moved along the coast with difficulty.
Curt Harlow [00:19:00]:
We moved along the coast with difficulty. That's verse eight. So the whole like almost from verse four to nine, he's just making that point. The sailing. And so there's two thoughts that come at me with this mark when I ask myself, what is this really trying to say to us? Why did Luke think this was important to include? And one is I think they can easily see the storm coming. So the storm is not a surprise. So oftentimes, like when you watch tornado movies, they'll go, oh, the tornado came out of nowhere. Oh no, we're trapped.
Curt Harlow [00:19:31]:
That's not how it works. The storm front that creates tornadoes is easily seeable way before the tornado comes. Now the tornado itself, that moment of crisis might come quickly, but the signs that it's coming are obvious to see. There's a thing called a shelf cloud. It's a huge massive collision of warm and cold air, moist and dry air. This is what happens in the Mediterranean. It's what happens in the Midwest of America. By the way, why Kansas gets all their tornadoes? You could see it coming.
Curt Harlow [00:20:03]:
And so Luke here is saying, yeah, we were tacking a sailing technique for multiple days and not making any progress. By the way, if there's any sailors out there, leave this in the comment because I have no idea how you get a wind driven vehicle to go into the wind and move forward. Yes, but apparently you can by getting pushed to the side. But the important point here is if you've ever been in a sailor sailboat that was tacking, it's arduous. Like the sail is shifting every couple minutes. The crew is working incredibly hard. It's not just we're clipping through the waves. So Luke is really saying, we are exhausted.
Curt Harlow [00:20:45]:
This has been very difficult and yet we're still going to pound our head against this problem. So like a few weeks ago, we had a passage. I'm trying to remember what it was, were, oh, Paul. Paul moves on from Ephesus. I think it was. Sometimes the will of God is not stick to itiveness. It's not just, you know, putting our roots down and saying we're not sometimes moving on is going, yeah, it's not working.
Mark Clark [00:21:13]:
Right.
Curt Harlow [00:21:13]:
We did what God wanted us to do here. Right. And without guilt or condemnation saying, this ain't working. Yeah, but often, I think we just preach the opposite all the time. Like, you know, be committed, stay through.
Mark Clark [00:21:25]:
Sure.
Curt Harlow [00:21:26]:
Being committed is more nuanced than just keep beating your head against the wall. It's clearly, I think, what they're trying to say here, Luke's trying to say here.
Mark Clark [00:21:34]:
I like it. So I think one of the other things is, you've heard this too, about Luke acts being like a mirror of each other and how, like, Paul becomes the Jesus figure of Luke, where he takes Paul through the same kinds of things near the end of his life that Jesus goes through. And so it's like multiple, you know, trials and that. So. So if you take that kind of filter and you went, what is this? It's kind of like, are we in the Garden of Gethsemane right now? You know, and this is like the last, right, torturous pushing against this difficulty and all of that before. Because the thing's about to end. The shipwreck, I think, and I'm not being allegory here, I'm saying if you were to try to play that thing out, the shipwreck becomes almost like the cross, right? You know, it's like this is the final suffering moment. And wood, you know, involved.
Mark Clark [00:22:25]:
There's wood. And so. But that's what I'm trying to think through is like. And then, of course, you and I, as. As preachers go, okay, well, now, you know, yes, this is literal win. But we all have difficulty in our life, and we all get up against things, and how are we going to get through all this, right? And then the other thing that popped to me was the day of atonement, the fact that Luke tells us this, and obviously it's, you know, it's a time of year that he's. To your point, he's telling us what time of year it is. But it's also a theological statement about, like, thinking through what was Yom Kippur in the Old Testament, what did it do? And how is the Gospel now that solution, you know, all of that.
Mark Clark [00:23:00]:
So.
Curt Harlow [00:23:00]:
And also, how much did Paul want to be a part of the Day of Atonement in Jerusalem as opposed to being a prisoner on this second boat on his way to Rome? I mean, you know, he presses so hard in the chapters earlier to get to Jerusalem. You gotta think that part of why Luke is bringing this up. Cause he wants us to know we're in storm season. But he's also bringing it up in going, we are not where our personal preference would have had us be. Not Paul especially Maybe Luke and the other Greek fellow that's with him. But you got to think Paul's love for being in Jerusalem during Passover is a part of what he's saying here. I also think, Mark, tell me if you think I'm wrong about this. Part of what's going on here is Luke is trying to get us to understand the difference between just normal day to day discernment.
Curt Harlow [00:24:02]:
And then again, spoiler alert. Then at the end it gets really supernatural and how both are important that we don't walk around on this supernatural counsel every moment. We use our common sense. We worship God with our minds, we think. And then there is an element where the storm gets so bad God's got to say, hey, by the way, you and the whole boat is going to be saved because you got to make it to Rome. And I, I think they. Part of this story is they both, Paul lived a life where they both worked together. Yeah, they weren't, it wasn't always raising Uticus from the grave.
Curt Harlow [00:24:41]:
It was teaching foundations of faith. Both those two things go to gather in that story. And then you do a Kevin Thompson here. So Kevin's been on this podcast many times. The great thing Kevin does here, as he goes in the epistles, where does this experience show up for Paul? So I immediately go, Paul's walking into sermon here. He's saying the unpopular thing because it's true. He's not planning an escape. He's not hiding down in the bottom of the boat going, well, let those guys all drown.
Curt Harlow [00:25:15]:
Right?
Mark Clark [00:25:15]:
Like Jonah.
Curt Harlow [00:25:16]:
He's doing what he can do and saying the truth and, and walking in that discernment. And then later on he writes this from Rome, Timothy, in all things, make sure to always keep your head. And I, this, now I look at, oh, he's talking about this. He's talking about the moments in the book of Acts where he had to fight against all of his freak out, all of his anger. You guys are going to kill me. You're going to kill my friends. Instead he's going, gentlemen. And then later on, it's so cool, he goes, and by the way, I was very right about what I said to you in that part of 27.
Curt Harlow [00:25:56]:
So speak to that a little bit to me. Where does the, where does natural discernment and keeping your head and being a calm thinker and where does. Yeah, we're flying by the seat of the pants on a supernatural unction that God has given us. Where are those.
Mark Clark [00:26:15]:
Yeah, I think, you know. What does Keller say? He says it Used to be when he spoke at conferences, the number one packed out, you know, breakout room would be, you know, whatever it was back in the day, you know, music and ministry or something like that. The music wars or whatever.
Curt Harlow [00:26:29]:
Are the drums from Africa of the devil.
Mark Clark [00:26:32]:
Yeah, exactly. Now, he said they're not, by the way. Yeah. If I could. He says if I could do a breakout called Discerning the Will of God, it'll be rammed.
Curt Harlow [00:26:40]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:26:41]:
You know, because everyone wants to discern the will of God in their life. And so the question becomes, you know, how do we do that? And I think there's been moments, you know, you're talking about there's supernatural times where God, like, you've had these. God shows up and he gives you a word. He gives you clarity. He get. But that. But for me, that's like. Like 1% of the time.
Mark Clark [00:27:00]:
Most of my life is spent in. In confusion of what I'm supposed to do. Right. Like, what am I supposed to do? What am I. What am I supposed to do in this scenario? And I don't get the super clear Holy Spirit moment of, like, Acts 2, where the tongues come out and everyone's like, oh, gosh, the Holy Spirit just did something. This is clear. It's more. This is normal life.
Mark Clark [00:27:21]:
This is. This is the average day.
Curt Harlow [00:27:22]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:27:23]:
Where you're like, I don't know. We're supposed to go that place. This thing's gonna crash, this cargo is gonna fall, this guy's gonna die. I don't know, man. Guys. And then there's so. So Kevin DeYoung wrote a book years ago called Just Do Something, and I love it because it basically said, you know, we. We are a very entitled generation that thinks that God should tell us all the information.
Curt Harlow [00:27:41]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:27:42]:
Right. He should tell us who we're. He should tell us that he should write it in the stars. You know, am I supposed to marry Scott? You know, and God will like, you'll be in your Alpha, Gettys. And I'll go, Scott. And you'll be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so. You know, whatever. And it's like, that's not really how God works.
Mark Clark [00:27:56]:
And it's a very entitled. Because the gap of that information is called faith. You know, he doesn't get to tell you. He's not going to tell you everything. He's going to. There's going to be moments of clarity and beauty and supernatural. And then most of our life is spent going to DeYoung's point. Just do something.
Curt Harlow [00:28:11]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:28:12]:
So it's not who you're going to marry, he says, it's whoever you marry, serve them. Like Christ served the church.
Curt Harlow [00:28:17]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:28:17]:
That's what God tells you. That's the information he gives you.
Curt Harlow [00:28:20]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:28:21]:
He doesn't tell you whether you're supposed to live in New York or Pittsburgh all the time.
Curt Harlow [00:28:24]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:28:25]:
Make a choice. Wherever you live, serve that city as Christ would have you serve.
Curt Harlow [00:28:29]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:28:30]:
Right. And of course, there are times, though, where it's like. And you had it when you came down here? I had it when I came down here. I had it when I married air, and I had it when I planted a church.
Curt Harlow [00:28:37]:
The Macedonian man plan.
Mark Clark [00:28:38]:
Exactly.
Curt Harlow [00:28:39]:
Second missionary journey. It's very supernatural.
Mark Clark [00:28:41]:
Exactly. You have those moments, but don't count on them most of the time. Just the reason God gave you a brain is because you're supposed to look at the winds and the data and go, this seems like the best plan.
Curt Harlow [00:28:53]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:28:54]:
And then you always give a gap for all of us.
Curt Harlow [00:28:56]:
Like. Like everything else. When we say, God, I wish I. You'd just be more clear about my future, all my decisions. If he really was, we would hate it.
Mark Clark [00:29:02]:
Yes. You want to know if you could know right now the day you're going to die and how you're going to die. We do know.
Curt Harlow [00:29:07]:
Absolutely not either. No. It's probably this week. Ordinary. It's probably this week. Wow.
Mark Clark [00:29:13]:
Well, I'll be hosting the Bible study.
Curt Harlow [00:29:14]:
Next Chest Pains Right now episode. You know, I. I say this to our folks in Auburn all the time. I say, listen, if you. First of all, God's not worried which job you're going to take. I had a kid come to me and say, pastor Curt, which job should I take this summer? And I said, well, give me the options. I said, which one will make you closer to Jesus? He said, they're about the same. I said, which one is a better mission failed.
Mark Clark [00:29:34]:
Yeah.
Curt Harlow [00:29:35]:
Oh, they're about the same. I said, well, tell me the options. He said, well, one is working at the Chick Fil A and the other one's a job I got offered at Burger King. I'm like, God didn't care.
Mark Clark [00:29:43]:
Chicken or burgers.
Curt Harlow [00:29:44]:
Yeah. God does not care. He's asking the question, how much do you trust me? How you treating people? Yeah, all. All this sort of 100 stuff right here. So. All right, let's get to the application moment because you're so fun to talk with that. We're already way there. And Bri off stage.
Curt Harlow [00:30:01]:
Hi, Bri, how you doing?
Mark Clark [00:30:03]:
Waving at us.
Curt Harlow [00:30:04]:
The real front of this pod.
Mark Clark [00:30:05]:
Qu. Land this plane.
Curt Harlow [00:30:07]:
Here's my one. Here's my one application thought. And then you give you the last word because you're brilliant. Okay, here's my application thought. What hard to hear thing are you not listening to? So again, putting ourselves in the seat of Julius and the pilot and the boat owner and the boat crew instead of Paul and. And Luke. What. What's one hard thing that you're.
Curt Harlow [00:30:30]:
That someone is telling you and you know it's true and you just. Just do not want to hear it. So there's a way I am spending my time right now. Not bad. It's not sinful. My wife is fully informed. My team is fully. I just don't think it's the best way to spend my time.
Curt Harlow [00:30:48]:
And I need to really sit down and go, I've got to eliminate this and this from my schedule so I can do this and this, but I don't really want to. And there's stuff like that in all of our life. And we sat for a moment and just said, said, I've been given this advice. I'm not listening to it. We would probably see some really, really good breakthroughs if we just accepted that hard to accept thing.
Mark Clark [00:31:12]:
Yeah, that's really good. Mine would be. The difficulty is inevitable. Turn. Turn struggles into strengths. Here's disappointment with God is inevitable in a sense of like, if you just. From a pure. I'm not saying it's right to be disappointed with God because who are we? But like, we feel it sometimes in life.
Mark Clark [00:31:33]:
And I think about where this story goes. There's only one chapter left in this book, in chapter 28. I forget where Paul says it, but I think about this often. I think he says it in Romans somewhere where he's like, hey, I need to get to Spain. Because Spain is going to be like my main hub of missionary activity and I need to plant it right. Do you remember this passage? I can't remember where it is, but.
Curt Harlow [00:31:49]:
Somewhere it's got to be Romans where.
Mark Clark [00:31:51]:
He goes, I got to get to Spain. I got it to Spain. My whole plan is to get to Spain.
Curt Harlow [00:31:54]:
I'm going to Rome to get to.
Mark Clark [00:31:56]:
Spain to get to Spain. Even though Rome obviously is the center of the world, it's where. But blah. And the whole book ends. The literally, the last verses of this book are not like, and Paul rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and did some awesome stuff. It's. He's under house arrest in Rome and the book ends. He never gets to Spain.
Curt Harlow [00:32:16]:
Right?
Mark Clark [00:32:17]:
And we don't really know what happened to him. But I think about. I remember N.T. wright pointing this out. He said, you know, C.S. lewis, he always wanted to be a poet. That was what he always. He was an Oxford scholar, of course.
Mark Clark [00:32:30]:
And he was brilliant. To your point earlier about the. He would read these medieval stories and these fables and the linguistics of it.
Curt Harlow [00:32:37]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:38]:
And he would. He was saturated in this stuff. I mean, like, he was. From the time he was like, 6 years old. He's reading Greek in the original. He's doing all. It's just different level.
Curt Harlow [00:32:46]:
Right. Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:32:47]:
So his whole world was like, medieval thinking and thought and poetry. And he always wanted to be a poet. And on his. He was never a published poet. No one ever really cared about his poetry. But on the way to writing poetry, he just happened to write Narnia and Mere Christianity and screw tape letters. And he's doing all these things that are, like, on the side.
Curt Harlow [00:33:07]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:33:07]:
But I really want this thing.
Curt Harlow [00:33:09]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:33:09]:
And God's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. I need you to get to house arrest under Rome, and then your story's over. You're not going to Spain.
Curt Harlow [00:33:16]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:33:17]:
Because you don't even know you're on one train of thought. All the things that God's accomplishing when you're trying to do something else.
Curt Harlow [00:33:23]:
Yes.
Mark Clark [00:33:23]:
Right. And you're disappointed you couldn't do that thing. And God's been doing all this other stuff along the way, I think is an encouragement to me.
Curt Harlow [00:33:30]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:33:30]:
If I never accomplish that goal, maybe my way along the way, the journey is actually the point.
Curt Harlow [00:33:37]:
Right.
Mark Clark [00:33:38]:
You know, and maybe I'm blessing people along the way in ways I never even dreamt of.
Curt Harlow [00:33:42]:
Yeah.
Mark Clark [00:33:43]:
And this looks like a disappointment. Paul's whole thing ends under house arrest in Rome. Like, that's not a hero's end. But it is. This is where God's like, okay, that's what I needed you for. We're good.
Curt Harlow [00:33:52]:
Y.
Mark Clark [00:33:53]:
You know, so anyway, so those disappointing moments that you have with God, just.
Curt Harlow [00:33:56]:
Realize he's using them, seeking first the kingdom. Lots of good stuff happen that you don't even realize happen. All right, so here's what I want to tell you. The next two podcasts, the Bible study are going to be during the storm and after the storm and. And frankly, the finish of this storm. I think you're not supposed to have favorite parts of the Book of Acts, but other than Acts, chapter one and two, this is my favorite little section here, so you don't want to miss it. So on the podcast, the Next time, we're gonna have John. John Maxwell and Nikki Gumbel.
Mark Clark [00:34:31]:
Right?
Curt Harlow [00:34:31]:
And who else?
Mark Clark [00:34:32]:
Christine King.
Curt Harlow [00:34:33]:
The Pope.
Mark Clark [00:34:34]:
The new. The new Pope is going to be Brie.
Curt Harlow [00:34:37]:
Is that right? We got. Oh, we just booked him. We just.
Mark Clark [00:34:40]:
He just got elected. As far as, you know, first priority.
Curt Harlow [00:34:43]:
Or it could be one of the great, great thinkers and communicators in the Bayside universe. It's one of the other.
Mark Clark [00:34:48]:
Or just you hanging out.
Curt Harlow [00:34:49]:
It could be me and Dena. By the way, don't protest. We're bringing Dena back. So here's the point. Don't miss the next two podcasts. And again, I just want to tell you, all the podcasts in the Thrive podcast, now, they're worth you checking out the marriage one.
Mark Clark [00:35:05]:
Change the odds.
Curt Harlow [00:35:06]:
Change the odds. It's fun, it's funny, and it's amazingly helpful. All. So, yeah, deck all those out. And again, thank you so much for caring about the Bible study. It's a big, big deal, and I really appreciate you watching. Would you please subscribe, like, follow, get the word out for us? Because the more people that actually take Bible study seriously, I think the better off we're all going to be.
Mark Clark [00:35:27]:
Great job, Curt.