Dena Davidson [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the Bible study Pod. I am Dena Davidson, and today I'm joined by Morgan May Treuil.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:05]:
Morgan May Treuil. Thanks for having me.
Dena Davidson [00:00:07]:
Oh, thank you for being here. This is honestly so exciting for me, Morgan, because I met you on the set of the very first Bible study filming. Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:15]:
Isn't that funny? So when we first started the Bible study, I had just gotten to Bayside to work, and this was one of my first projects that we did, and I was so passionate about it because I loved the shows we were doing, but I felt like I was learning so much. Like, I would come into film and I would be there to, like, produce and direct. But mostly I was, like, taking copious amounts of notes on my computer just to soak up everything that I had. And I remember thinking, when I grow up, I want to be Dena Davidson. That's what I was thinking during the early phases of the Bible study. So the fact that I'm now on the Bible study as the expert feels kind. That's generous. Remove that word from everybody's brain.
Morgan May Treuil [00:00:54]:
No, it just feels like kind of a fever dream, but also a huge blessing. And to be on it with you. It is so fun.
Dena Davidson [00:01:00]:
Definitely special.
Morgan May Treuil [00:01:00]:
So I'm thankful to be here.
Dena Davidson [00:01:02]:
Well, I'm so glad you're here. Morgan is one of our 1825 directors, and she oversees a lot of next gen projects. She's an incredible communicator at Bayside, and we are so honored to have us. So if you are joining in for the first time to the Bible study pod, we encourage you to share this episode, send it to someone that needs the message of Acts 20, because that is what we're going to be diving into. So let me go ahead and jump in. We have been in a series on Acts at Bayside Church. So we covered the first portion of this passage in the weekend. So we're gonna actually jump in verse 22.
Dena Davidson [00:01:38]:
So Paul is talking to the leaders of the Ephesian. Ephesian Church. Ephesus Church. And he is saying, basically, this is my farewell address to you. I am no longer going to see you. And so these are Paul's last thoughts and last words. So he starts out in verse 22. And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and infliction awaits me.
Dena Davidson [00:02:11]:
But I do not account my life of any value, nor as precious to myself. If only I may finish my course and the ministry that I receive from the Lord Jesus to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. We're gonna camp on the next several verses, but there's one theme I wanna unpack here. And, Morgan, you shared in our staff meeting a really incredible story that I think will probably speak so directly to one of the issues that's raised in this passage. Just like if you're following along in the story of Paul, at first you're like, this guy's a murderer.
Dena Davidson [00:03:03]:
He's terrible. Like, yeah, deserves that beating. He deserves that imprisonment. But after it happens for like the 70th time, you kind of have this, like, God, isn't that enough?
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:13]:
Should we let him off the hook now or something?
Dena Davidson [00:03:15]:
Hasn't he. Hasn't this man suffered enough for you? Why. Why aren't you taking him out of this trial? So I'd love if you can share just from your own story, how you seen God show up in the midst of trials.
Morgan May Treuil [00:03:28]:
Yeah. Verse 23 is the one that gets me because I read that I only know that in every city, the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. And I'm thinking, if I'm in Paul's shoes, I'm like, man, if God's telling me, hey, prison and hardships are coming your way, I'm like, how do I figure out how to make my way around that path and go a different way? And it. It asks this question, why do our stories have to include suffering? And especially for someone like Paul. Yes, Paul has a gnarly past, but Paul has dedicated his present and his future to following God. He even says this very dramatic language. He's like, I wash my hands of you guys. Meaning, I have preached the gospel to.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:07]:
Your blood is no longer on my hands. I have given my life for the sake of all of you coming to know the Lord Jesus. So he has an incredible story. He clearly has a very thorough ministry. Why does suffering have to be a part of this if he's honoring God? And so we talked in staff meeting, and this is kind of like a big picture theological view of suffering. Why does suffering happen? It's not that God's desire is for you to suffer. God did not author suffering. Suffering is the result of a fallen and broken world.
Morgan May Treuil [00:04:33]:
Because of the human decision to choose sin over choosing God. This is a natural consequence to our world. Now, the good news is we serve a God who is so good that he is able to bring about redemption even out of your suffering. And we talked about this in our staff meeting, that there are two truths to how God is in our suffering that are able to help us move forward. And my theory is this is why Paul was able to move forward like he talks about in verse 23. The first is, God promises to be with you, right? He promises to be with you. He doesn't promise no suffering, actually. He guarantees suffering in his world, in his.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:09]:
In His Word. But he also promises to go with you. You look at all of the Old Testament heroes who had to do hard things and go through hard circumstances. God did not remove them from the circumstances, but he promised to sit with them and to lead them through those circumstances. So the first reality is God is redemptive in your suffering because he chooses to be with you. The second reality, and this is the one that is my favorite, because to me, this one feels very productive. Like it points to something, it brings a purpose about in the midst of your suffering. The second reality is that God chooses to reveal Himself to you in your suffering.
Morgan May Treuil [00:05:44]:
There's just, you know, without those friends or maybe your spouse or your family, and you go through something really hard together, and on the other side of that, you're bummed that you had to go through something hard. But you know them so much deeper and you rely on them so much more because of the suffering that you just went through. Right? And that's part of the redemptive quality of God, that He. He doesn't remove your suffering, but he chooses to go with you in your suffering. And he chooses to reveal his heart to you that by the time you are on the other side of your suffering, you will have learned something about God that you didn't know before. A practical example of this would be, I have a panic and anxiety disorder that I've had for my whole life, have prayed many times for God to remove this. He has not removed it yet. I've had a complicated journey with that, but have still pressed forward in faith that eventually I'll be in heaven with God.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:33]:
There will be no more panic. And in the meantime, I'm going to keep tricking forward and seeing what God will do with it. The one prayer that I had where I really expected for God to do something is leading up to my wedding ceremony. I had all these panic attacks during that season I was having like five or six a day. And I desperately. And they're, they're debilitating. They take you out, right? It's all the classic panic symptoms. Your hands go numb, your gag reflexes triggered.
Morgan May Treuil [00:06:56]:
You feel like you're going to pass out and you feel like basically something to the equivalent of death is coming for you and you don't know when it's going to stop. And it keeps happening over and over again. And so I was having all these panic attacks and my desire was, hey, God, I'm honoring you. You, I'm following you, I'm getting married, I'm in ministry. Can you just give me a seven minute wedding ceremony free of panic? Panic has stolen so many moments in my life. Could we just have this seven minutes? And I prayed and had others pray for me, lay hands on me. We just prayed, prayed, pray, leading up to the ceremony. And I was convinced that God was going to spare that chunk of time.
Dena Davidson [00:07:31]:
It seems like so in his character.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:32]:
It seems so in his character to be like, you know what, I didn't take the panic all those other times, but I'm not going to take it. But I will take it this time. You know, just this one moment. And I wasn't mad at God for the panic, but I was like, God, you can do this. Like, please do this. And we get to the wedding ceremony that had been long anticipated. And about two to three minutes into the ceremony, all of my panic symptoms start. The feeling in my hands, the feeling in my throat, the feeling in my head.
Morgan May Treuil [00:07:58]:
And my first thought, besides panicking is, I'm so discouraged. God, I asked you, I believed you for this. Like, if you were good, you would have taken this away from me. Now my wedding ceremony is going to be ruined and you could have stopped this. And in that little downward spiral of thoughts, I'm interrupted by that because Benji, my husband, is pinching my fingers and he's scratching my wrists and he's tapping my elbow and he's bumping my hip with his hip. And I'm distracted from the panic. And I realize he's doing all of the things to me that I do to myself to get me out of the panic attack. He's doing all of the helpful, practical little things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:08:39]:
And in this moment I had this full circle where I realized, oh God, you're doing something really beautiful in this. What I wanted was a ceremony free of panic. What you gave me was a ceremony in which I learned the character of my husband and the character of my father, that even if we would go through valley moments. You would be with me, that you would comfort me, that you would strengthen me. And I thought this is the perfect. What it was my favorite panic attack I ever had. It was the best wedding ceremony because it pointed to something so much deeper than what I, what I wanted to see it. It showed me God's heart for me in a way that I hadn't experienced yet.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:15]:
And for Paul, if your question is like, why does Paul have to go through all of this stuff? I think God is redemptive enough to jump into his situation and say, hey, Paul, you're going to go through some hard stuff in my name, but you will know me in a way that is much deep, deeper, and much more intimate than if you hadn't gone through these things. And that's part of the redemptive quality of suffering. So if you feel bad for Paul, you can feel bad for Paul.
Dena Davidson [00:09:37]:
That's right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:09:38]:
But also, Paul is getting something really rich out of this too. And we can too, in our suffering. So that's just like a general thought. That's so good.
Dena Davidson [00:09:46]:
But I, I, I just love that theological perspective that God does not cause suffering, but he will never waste suffering. He is always in the midst of it with us, and he's going to be teaching us. So I don't know what particular way God showed up for, but I just know that you can tell, like, Paul is present with Jesus throughout all of this. And that's why he's able to look at the Ephesians and say, I'm innocent of your blood. Like, he will say, I have fought the good fight. I have run the good race. And like the crown, he can taste it, you can sense it. In this passage in Acts, his story is drawing to a close, but the story of God is gonna go so much further.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:26]:
He has this capacity to hold the reality of suffering and the passion to keep moving forward in obedience. And where that is present, you have to know that Paul's experience is not all suffering, because he's learned the secret to being content in all situations. Right. Paul has learned how to have joy even in the middle of suffering. And that can be the reality for us too, in whatever our journey or assignment is at this point in time. You can have suffering and you can have joy and you can hold them at the same time. But the world tries to tell you that if you have suffering, you can't have anything else. And that's not true because Paul had both.
Morgan May Treuil [00:10:59]:
That's why he kept moving so powerful. It's Good.
Dena Davidson [00:11:03]:
So I think as we were showing up to the rest of this passage, one of the things that is gonna be so apparent is that Paul has given his farewell address to the leaders who are coming up next. And we first wanna ask the question. Cause this is what we do. We do hermeneutics. We wanna do good exegesis. When I ask the question, what did this mean to those leaders in Ephesus? And then we'll close also just saying. And we're part of that next group of leaders that Paul from 2000 years ago, he's addressing. What does it look like for us to take these words and really run with them? So we're gonna pick up in verse 28, he says, pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Dena Davidson [00:11:51]:
So we're just gonna go verse by verse through this passage. So, Morgan, any. Any observations from that part?
Morgan May Treuil [00:11:56]:
Well, I think first is the flow of verse 28. So I think we could actually go back and forth between what this meant to the Ephesian leaders then and what it means to us now. Because I do feel like this is really current. And it was very current then, too. The first reality to keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. So I love the phrasing that leaders go first, right? Leaders go first. Meaning things happen to. I think Pastor Ray says this, like, nothing happens through you until it happens in you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:27]:
Right? And what I love about this is, is. Is Paul speaking to church leaders who are responsible for overseeing a flock. Flock language is like sheep, right? Shepherd sheep kind of relationships. There's great responsibility in that. But great responsibility to lead other people does not mean a neglection. Is neglection a word or a neglecting a neglecting of yourself, Right? You have to take. It's kind of like when you're on an airplane, right? And they do that demonstration where they're like. Like oxygen masks are going to fall from the.
Morgan May Treuil [00:12:57]:
And it. By the way, if an oxygen mask ever came down from the ceiling on a flight, I'd be like, God, take me now. The panic of this moment, I will not survive.
Dena Davidson [00:13:06]:
Benji's having to put you.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:08]:
Okay, so that's. So that's the thing they say you put your oxygen mask on first so you can help your child. So Benji would put his on first and then he would.
Dena Davidson [00:13:17]:
He just knows that's going to be his job forever.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:18]:
Parenting child. And that seems counterintuitive because you would think, no, my child is my first love. I'm responsible for their care. I need to put theirs on first. Actually not productive, because if you don't have oxygen, you won't be able to give them oxygen. Right. And I think the same thing is true for church leaders. It was the same thing that was true for church leaders of the Ephesian Church.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:38]:
It's the same thing for us. It's the idea that you have to keep careful guard of yourself.
Dena Davidson [00:13:44]:
Yes.
Morgan May Treuil [00:13:44]:
Your health is important because your health helps to fuel your care for the health of the flock that God has entrusted you with. So that was one observation. Do you have thoughts about that?
Dena Davidson [00:13:55]:
Well, I just want to make sure that no one is counting themselves out because your thought might be like, oh, cool. So that applies to Pastor Curt, that applies to Pastor Mark. You know, good paid people who do this professionally. But what this meant, the original hearers is anyone who was given a job in the first century church, these were the leaders of the church and they were not paid.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:20]:
Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:14:20]:
I mean, Paul himself was barely paid. So this whole idea of being a paid minister of the gospel is, you know, that that applies to some people. It sometimes applied to Paul and sometimes did. So don't count yourself out. I just want to say to anyone listening, it's a great point. If you don't get your paycheck from the church, if you have spiritual responsibility at any level at your church, and that could honestly look like showing up and opening the door so someone can get inside, that can look like leading a high school small group full of teenagers. Whatever your role is at the church, maybe you are an elder and you're guarding the theology and the purity of.
Morgan May Treuil [00:14:57]:
The church, the finances of the church, like literally the options are endless of what you could be overseeing.
Dena Davidson [00:15:04]:
That's right. And I think about what you're saying is so true. How many people in the world today have stories where a church leader, not even necessarily a paid pastor, but a church leader, absolutely failed. They failed morally, they failed in love, they failed in integrity. And it has left its mark on those people. So what you're saying is so, so true and so important. And that's why Paul is first and foremost saying you have to watch over your own spir spiritual health.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:32]:
Yeah. And I'm really glad you said that because we have certain scriptures where the tendency is to skip past it because it doesn't apply to me, like by position. That doesn't apply to me. But what you're saying is so valuable if the Great Commission was given for all. In Matthew 28, everybody is called to ministry. Right? Ministry is not a paycheck from the church. Ministry is. I have received mission from God to reach the ends of the earth with the gospel.
Morgan May Treuil [00:15:58]:
And I'm going to use my skill sets, both in ministry, vocational ministry, and in marketplace, to serve God. So this applies to everybody. And I would challenge people to think about that principle of tend to yourself and then tend to your flock. That's not selfish language. Like, only think of yourself. It's take care of your health so that you can take care of the health of others. And I would say, like, I would challenge yourself in your serving area, in your church, or in your small group, or even in your work, whatever that thing is. Like, identify.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:26]:
What would that look like for you? Does that mean that you spend time with God on your own before you show up to lead your high school small group? Does that mean that you spend some time getting a couple extra hours of sleep so that you wake up refreshed for your Sunday morning greeting at the front door? You know, like, what is. What does that look like? Right. Yeah, I think it looks different for different people, but the instruction is for all people. So that would be the first thing I would say.
Dena Davidson [00:16:49]:
So good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:16:49]:
And then we talked about that shepherd flock language, right. Which I want to get into a second, like what that idea of shepherding means, because there's some responsibility here that's being given to them. But before we get into what the role of the shepherd is, it says, keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. And I see a lot of people. I talked to one today who is in a new assignment in life where God has given them leadership over a group of people, over a demographic of people. And the first thought is, I'm in my first year. I don't think this is working. I don't think God called the right person.
Morgan May Treuil [00:17:27]:
Yeah, I don't know how I ended up here. God sends somebody else, right? And I think that, that the. The importance of what Paul is saying here. Keep watch over yourself. Keep watch over your flock by which the Holy Spirit has made you an overseer. You're not here by accident. You're here because in God's sovereignty, he has designed for you to take this role and to be in this position, whatever that is, to serve and to oversee a flock. So don't have confidence in yourself to the point where you try to do it on your own, but don't not have confidence that God has appointed you to the place that you are now.
Morgan May Treuil [00:18:03]:
Because doubting yourself in some ways, at least in this context, is like doubting the Holy Spirit that lives within you and has positioned you where you are today. I don't know that doubting yourself is actually helpful to the mission of God.
Dena Davidson [00:18:16]:
That's so good. And essentially what Paul is saying is, hey, you are going to be very needed. Like you're very needed to stay in Ephesus. And I think so many people could have looked at Paul and been like, well, that's how you really honor God, is you go all of these churches and you're forever on these missionary journeys and if I'm not getting, you know, beaten and thrown in jail, then I'm doing something wrong. And, and the reality is Paul is saying, hey, that's my assignment. You overseers in Ephesus, you need to be faithful to your assignment. And he's about to clue them in in the next verse as to what comes next.
Morgan May Treuil [00:18:51]:
Yes, there is, there is a couple I, I chat GPT this cause I think it's interesting. I'm fascinated by the shepherd flock relationship, but they've been empowered by the Holy Spirit to shepherd the church of God. And God cares about this church because he makes, Paul makes careful note of this. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. Jesus is not like casual about his love for the church. Jesus bought the church with his own blood. He cares for it. And so Paul is essentially giving the responsibility to these overseers.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:21]:
You've got to do a good job with this. Be diligent, right? Be disciplined, be focused. It's kind of like, like have you dog sat or babysat for somebody else?
Dena Davidson [00:19:30]:
Not in a hot second. I have your own, my own child.
Morgan May Treuil [00:19:33]:
So I don't have every day. Like I'm always babysit, I'm always dog. So I don't have that privilege right now. I don't have kids, I don't have a dog. But I do have a, A, a select few friends where when I watch their dog or their children, I think I've got to get this right. Because if they come back to a dog that is anything less than the perfect condition they left me this dog with, I'm in trouble. Like they love this dog more than they love me. It would be the dog, it would not be me, right? They would not choose me.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:03]:
And so it's kind of like this, this, this idea that like you take really good care of things that Belong that someone else loves. And you love your church, you love your small group, you love your family that God's called you to shepherd as well. But God has, like, given himself for those groups of people. He's paid for them with his own blood. He is sacrificially invested in them. And so we have to take great responsibility to care for them. Like, not only we love them, but God loves them, loves them more than we could. So the role of the shepherd.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:34]:
Just a couple thoughts guiding, protecting, feeding. It's a big one. Also, sheep are really dumb, by the way. Don't know if anybody really under. Look up sheep. It's pretty crazy, right? I think Andrew McCor at a Christmas service, it was like a video that he showed. And it's this. It's this one sheep whose, like, goes over the cliff.
Morgan May Treuil [00:20:52]:
Yes. It goes, like, into this big trench. And the shepherd, like, digs the sheep out of the trench, and then everyone's happy. And then the sheep hops, like, three more hops, and then it's back in the same trench. Right? Like, that's sheep. We're idiots, right? Sheep are sometimes very dumb. And yet God cares so much about the sheep. And I think why, like, these shepherding instructions are so diligent is because God wants us to take great care.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:16]:
But guiding, protecting, feeding, healing, gathering, shearing, and making sure you know your sheep. Because if a sheep runs off, you have to make sure that you know the right number. My dad is doing cattle now, and when. I'm sorry. Okay. It's hard for me because I'm not fully sure. They're like, they've got a bunch of cows on their property and they're doing something with them. I'm not fully understanding what they're doing, but they're doing something with.
Dena Davidson [00:21:41]:
Might be some steak later.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:43]:
It's not like that.
Dena Davidson [00:21:44]:
Okay.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:44]:
I think they're, like, buying and selling cows.
Dena Davidson [00:21:46]:
Okay. All right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:21:48]:
I'm not sure how it makes money, but that's what's happening. And. And we're constantly counting cows. Like, when we're there, we're just counting. We're just counting cows every. My dad's like, all right, let's get a count. I need three different people to count. We're all, like, comparing counts for these cows because they're worth a lot of money.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:04]:
If you lose one, if one goes off into the woods to die. If one has a baby, you got a new calf. You have to count. You have to know, right? Because God's heart is that not a single one would be lost. Right. So anyways, responsibility to know your sheep because he paid with his own blood. Blood. So he cares about this flock we're meant to care with, the same way that God cares.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:23]:
Whatever your flock is, Love it. So much cow stuff.
Dena Davidson [00:22:28]:
I was not expecting you to jump in with. And so, you know, on my father's property, you were counting cows.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:33]:
I feel like maybe y'all haven't talked about cattle in the Bible study. I just thought it was time.
Dena Davidson [00:22:36]:
Hey, we're only three episodes in, so that's good.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:38]:
Oh, really?
Dena Davidson [00:22:39]:
Actually, this is our fourth episode, so you're right. We should be totally knees deep.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:43]:
We've already had the cow conversation. By episode two, obviously, we were behind.
Dena Davidson [00:22:47]:
Okay, okay. Verse. Verse 29.
Morgan May Treuil [00:22:50]:
Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:22:50]:
So the. Paul is cluing them in saying. Saying, hey, shepherds, overseers, here is what is going to happen. Which, this is wild to me that Paul had this type of knowledge, but basically he's seen this starting to happen in his other churches, and he's cluing them in that it's on its way to Ephesus. I know that after my departure, fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. And this is the crazy part to me. And from among your own own selves.
Morgan May Treuil [00:23:18]:
Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:23:19]:
Will arise men speaking twisted things to draw away the disciples after them. This. This is wild to me. So, like, first of all, fierce wolves, I think. I think I just have this maybe too naive, sometimes generous heart where I'm like, everyone's just trying their best, right? They're just showing up and they're doing good things. And so I'm like, hey, Paul. Like, so they don't quite understand that people don't need to be circumcised. Right.
Dena Davidson [00:23:45]:
Like, that's one of the things that these fierce wolves are gonna start doing is saying, ah, you have to be circumcised. And I think sometimes I always assume that people have this generosity of heart, and it's like everyone's got good intentions. But the Holy Spirit has communicated to Paul, you need to warn these leaders that some things are about to go down in the church of God. And their role is to stand and to protect against these things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:13]:
Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:24:14]:
Because not everyone is out for Christ, Christ's best interests. Not everyone is actually in it to protect the flock. Not everyone is in it for the right motives, and not everyone is in it to do the right thing. And it's your job to protect against these things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:30]:
Yeah.
Dena Davidson [00:24:30]:
And what is wild to me is, I mean, I just imagine like several men Just standing around and then he's like, from your own selves.
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:38]:
Yeah, it's like Judas. Have you seen the picture where everyone's like. It's like. It's the three people and they're all holding like this.
Dena Davidson [00:24:47]:
Like, me, you. Yes, 100%. I think they're just like. They leave and they're like, well, that was awkward. Like, who is he talking about?
Morgan May Treuil [00:24:56]:
Who's it going to be?
Dena Davidson [00:24:57]:
But I mean, honestly, this is kind of like, this is in the story of God, like in. In Jesus's own 12.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:03]:
Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:25:04]:
There was a disciple who's like, I. I no longer want what Jesus has to offer. And so I think there. There needs to be this moment where as leaders of the church of God, we have to wrestle with the fact that there will come a crossroads moment in your life, Morgan, and my life, where we have to choose between someone that we thought was on our team and who held the truth of God and what the truth of God is, and that there will be a crossroads moment where we have to make that choice. And as someone who deeply studies philosophy and the history of the church, I see so many times. Times error creeps into the church when we try to keep accommodating and be like, well, maybe.
Morgan May Treuil [00:25:50]:
Well, maybe.
Dena Davidson [00:25:51]:
Well, maybe there's a way for Judas to also get, you know, what he wants out of this. You know, well, maybe there's a way for these people pushing that everyone needs to be circumcised. Maybe. Maybe they can be part of. And. And Paul is saying, hey, it's our job to protect. And for those that are distorting, he literally says, speaking twisted things. For those that are speaking twisted things, there is a call and there is a moment.
Dena Davidson [00:26:16]:
We do it with kindness and with grace. We speak the truth in love, but we speak the truth, and we protect against error. And we are willing to separate ourselves from those who are distorting the gospel, those who are literally in the flock of God, like wolves devouring. Those who are simply trying to know God better.
Morgan May Treuil [00:26:36]:
You know what's interesting about this? This is a huge point. Like, people should probably stop right now, rewind, and then listen to what Dena just said. Cause what you're talking about is very. Also very hard to wrestle with because there's lots of relationships that come into question so much and have to be reevaluated when situations like this arise. Isn't it interesting how the word, at least in the niv, the word distort is used? Or I think what you're. What was Yours twisted. Twisted, twisted. The truth.
Morgan May Treuil [00:27:06]:
Which is funny because you would think, okay, I'm a shepherd and I'm looking after my sheep. I'm the most on guard, guard against external forces and how they will impact the health and safety of my sheep. I think about the world today, we're the most on guard against the forces external the church rather than internal the church. We're getting our, our. I was, I was gonna use this phrase that actually doesn't work here, but we're getting like really upset and surprised and shocked and defensive about how the world is being the world and how the, the world comes up against the church and how that's harmful. So what I love about this is this is kind of a redirection of focus. Meaning it's not that the world is not going to come against the church. That is going to happen and you're right to be on the lookout for that.
Dena Davidson [00:27:57]:
It's happening all over acts.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:00]:
But also what you're not looking at is the people that are going to come up from within the church, they're also wolves. But you didn't see them come in because they came in as sheep. That's right, but they're actually wolves. Right. And so I think, think that what you're talking about, you use the example of circumcision. What's funny about the, the internal wolves that come up is that sometimes their way of leading people astray is much more damaging because it's much more subtle. The world comes in from the outside and says, you guys should be doing this. And it's the complete anti truth.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:30]:
And we're all like, nice try, that's not truth. We're not going to do that.
Dena Davidson [00:28:33]:
Not falling for that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:34]:
Not falling for that one Satan. Right. But then the ones that come up from within, there are the ones that are saying a distortion, not a denial of truth.
Dena Davidson [00:28:41]:
That's right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:28:41]:
The world denies truth, so we know that it's clear they're denying truth. They're not of the way. I don't follow that way. The ones that come from within, they distort, they use a little bit of truth, but then they twist it around with some non truths to make you question like do I have to be circumcised in order to be saved? Is this a necessary thing in order for me to have a relationship with Jesus? And that's the one that has to be why watched for. Because that one can be the most damaging. It must be Jesus. And also this. Right? And it twists the way that our church and Our churches back then would think, and I think that's a cool instruction.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:15]:
It's the people that are distorting. And it's not just external forces. It's also internal. So you have to be wary and on your guard.
Dena Davidson [00:29:22]:
Yeah.
Morgan May Treuil [00:29:23]:
Yes.
Dena Davidson [00:29:24]:
I think it's so. It's such an important thing. And I can literally, I won't say the specific issues, but I can think of three specific issues where people I loved that I was doing ministry with, that I was partnering, that I knew their relationship with Jesus, they started to drift theologically. They started to incorporate and add into the faith ideas that I knew because I knew God's word were contrary to the scriptures. I'm not talking about, like, side issues. I'm talking about the main and plain doctrines of Christianity. And each time I had this wrestle conversation with the Holy Spirit where I was like, am I right? Am I wrong? Like, am I crazy? Is this okay? And what am I supposed to do with this? What they're saying sounds so good, and it allows me to wrap my arm around a larger group of people. And that was really my motivation.
Dena Davidson [00:30:21]:
And I was like, that's so Jesus. Y Right. Wrapping my arm around a large group.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:25]:
Of people under the guise of it being more inclusive. This is the more inclusive.
Dena Davidson [00:30:28]:
Exactly. And each time the Holy Spirit said, you know, stick to the truth. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. You don't have to pound truth into everyone's brain, but it is your job to not let up speaking what the truth is and to stick to the truth, continue to study it, continue to teach it, and to be honest about what God says. We can't just be redefining terms here. Dena, this is.
Morgan May Treuil [00:30:57]:
This is a really important. This is important for all believers everywhere that holding the correct standard of truth is incredibly important. And in these days and all of the days to come, the people from within that are. That are coming up with different worldviews and ways of thinking under the guise of this is going to allow me to bring more people in. This is the more inclusive way. This is the more loving way. Way. It's going to become the most challenging in those particular instances to discern.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:29]:
Am I still holding the truth for what the truth actually is if I subscribe to that way of thinking? Or am I making allowances for things that are not truth? And the danger in that is it's always going to sound more loving.
Dena Davidson [00:31:43]:
That's right.
Morgan May Treuil [00:31:44]:
It's always going to sound more loving. But actually, there being one truth and one way is the most loving thing, because in that way you are not allowed allowing people to be deceived by false loves, false gods, false ways of living. So I think that's a really important thing that's. And that's applicable to so many people because everybody's going to have to make those decisions for what truth is and how they're going to hold that when there's a lot of different ways of thinking that are popping up, especially from within the church.
Dena Davidson [00:32:14]:
That's right, yeah. So for Paul, in the audience that he was talking to, it was the whole issue of, you know, what does it really mean to be saved? And the whole issue of Jesus. Plus for us, it's a myriad of different issues. But whatever your issue is, I'd say listen to Paul's admonition to watch out for those speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. And then he says, verse 31, and we have two more verses and then we'll wrap this up. He says, therefore, be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day, to admonish every one with tears. And now I commend you to God. And this is where I'd love for us just to camp for a second.
Dena Davidson [00:32:57]:
Now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. I commend you to God. If the previous conversation, you're like, well, now I'm freaked out that I'm gonna become a heretic. And you're like, the wolves are. And you're just like, what am I supposed to do that?
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:18]:
What if I'm a wolf? What if. I don't know I'm a wolf? What if it's going to be me? I'm like, I get it.
Dena Davidson [00:33:23]:
Freaked out.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:23]:
I have those thoughts right now, actually.
Dena Davidson [00:33:24]:
So you're like, I'm going to go home.
Morgan May Treuil [00:33:26]:
You're in good company.
Dena Davidson [00:33:28]:
It's just Paul's like, I commend you to God, God, the sovereign God who called you to be saved. He is able to finish this work in you. He's able to keep you from error, commend you to God and to the word of his grace. And this just draws us back. We ever need to stick to what God has said and is saying. That's our standard. What has God said and what is God saying? It's both. The word of God is living and active.
Dena Davidson [00:33:55]:
It pierces and it divides. And it. It is able to take A look at our hearts and say, hey, how is Dena interpreting scripture to. To help Dena get what she wants versus how is the word of God God cutting Dena and crucifying her and helping her to look more like my son, Jesus? The word of God is living and active. So as we're wrapping up, just any, any closing thoughts for you about these final verses.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:23]:
Well, I just think this is where the practical application lies, right? It's that idea of, hey, stick with God because there's two things that will happen. Like, don't be caught up in fear over whether or not you're a wolf or whether or not your church is going to get ravaged by wolves or all of those things, right? It's stick with God and the word of his grace. Because it does two things. It can build you up in the present, it can take care of you, right? And then it will give you an inheritance. So it's got you now and it's got you in the future. So always head back to that baseline of this is who God is. This is the word of grace. I'm gonna stick with God and he's gonna add everything else.
Morgan May Treuil [00:34:56]:
But then I was gonna say, though, because we talked a lot about like shepherd flock language. And when, when in verse 30, 31 where he says, so be on your guard. Remember, for three years I never stopped warning you, you of warning each of you night and day with tears. There is some practical help in there for how we are to minister and shepherd to whatever your flock is. And again, like, this is inclus, not sorry, not inclusive in the way that we were talking about it. But this is like general language in the sense that all are called to shepherd flock in whatever your way is, right? So the first thing is it was three years long, which means it was. This is David Guzik, by the way, three years long, which means that it was long term care. It was over the long haul, right? Now God might call you to different spaces and different places and times.
Morgan May Treuil [00:35:40]:
Time, that's on you and God and the Holy Spirit. But this was long term care that Paul put in. He didn't cease, which meant that it was constant. That doesn't mean that he didn't rest, right? But that means that he was constant in his approach to warn them, which meant that in his care he was watchful, right? He was being a shepherd to the sheep. He was protecting them, he was warning them even of the hard stuff. Like this is not an easy conversation to warn them about the wolves that they might be or the wolves that might come from them. But he's also in the last days. So he's like, this is the most important thing I got to say anything.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:11]:
Like, I'm about to. I'm about to head out. This is my last warning to you. It says that it was done to everyone, which means that it was a universal to all people. And then with tears, which meant that it was heartfelt and passionate. It wasn't just like a downloading of information to people. It was like a deep longing yearning from his soul that the people he was speaking to would know Jesus and that it would actually change their lives. And so.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:35]:
So those are just a couple practical ways of like, how should I be ministering and approaching the flock that God's entrusted me with? And those things could be good practical points.
Dena Davidson [00:36:44]:
Let's recap those real quick because there is someone in your church that needs you right now. You may not have a thousand people depending on you for this level of care, but you have someone in your church that needs you to show up in this way that Morgan just shared.
Morgan May Treuil [00:36:59]:
Verse 31, so be on your guard. Remember that for three years that means that Paul took care of them with a long term care. This is David Guzik. I'm not taking credit for this long term care. I never stopped warning each of you. That means that it was constant care. Not without rest care, but it was constant care warning each of you, meaning there was warning language. He didn't avoid talking about hard things.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:22]:
Hard things were actually a part of it because it was for their benefit and for their safety to each of you. Meaning this was universal. It wasn't just for some, it was for all. And then lastly day and night, or night and day with tears, meaning that it was passionate, it was a longing from his soul. He. He genuinely cared that people would meet Christ. Yeah. And if you're like me, that passion can kind of come and go.
Morgan May Treuil [00:37:44]:
When you're around new believers and you hear their fire, you're like, I'm really excited for the world to be saved. But sometimes if you're stagnant and if you lay off the gas, you can get not as excited about the world meeting Jesus. And that's something with prayer. God can reinstill or fan that fire in you, but you have to ask for it. And so those are some practicals out of verse 31. How should I tend to my flock? This is how you should do it.
Dena Davidson [00:38:05]:
I love it. Yeah, well, Morgan and I are cheering you on and we're praying for you because you are not One of the wolves you are.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:12]:
Don't worry, you're probably not a wolf.
Dena Davidson [00:38:13]:
You're listening to the Bible study podcast. Hopefully that shows that you have a heart for God's word.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:17]:
If you're listening to this, odds are you're not the wolf. But you might know one.
Dena Davidson [00:38:20]:
Hey, you might become one.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:21]:
One. So stick.
Dena Davidson [00:38:22]:
Stick to the word of God. Keep watching. Keep watching. Yes. And keep sifting what we say, too. You never know.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:28]:
I hope we're not.
Dena Davidson [00:38:28]:
So that's good. We. We are commended by God, right? Like God. God is able to keep us within the bounds of what is correct.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:35]:
Stick with God's grace.
Dena Davidson [00:38:36]:
So we are rooting you on. Thank you for your faithful ministry to God's church, his bride, which he purchased with his own blood. And I do want to tell you, because if you are like, I have fallen in love with Morgan May Treuil one. She's taken. That was clear from the first part of the episode. But also. So you have a phenomenal podcast with Leslie, who is. Honestly, I don't know if Leslie gets enough credit here at Bayside.
Morgan May Treuil [00:38:59]:
No, she doesn't.
Dena Davidson [00:39:00]:
You're like, no. I'll just say she is the wisest. She's wise, but she's also the best manager at Bayside.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:06]:
She's an incredible leader, but she's also an incredible communicator and teacher. We do a podcast called Am I Doing this Right? Which by the title, you can kind of tell. We're out to discover. First of all, we're out to get to know Jesus better. We're out to help people grow in their faith and grow in their knowledge of God, but also to address all of the internal doubts and questions that we have as we pursue God, as we pursue relationships, as we pursue our purpose. We're all filled with, like, a myriad of doubt questions. God, am I doing this right in this area of my life? And we're answering that question kind of along the way. So we bring on guests, we talk, just the two of us.
Morgan May Treuil [00:39:40]:
It's meant to be raw, authentic, honest, funny, and hopefully deeply helpful. So that podcast comes out every Monday called Am I Doing this Right? You can follow us online at at Am I doing this right on Instagram?
Dena Davidson [00:39:53]:
Love it. And I would say, like, you're probably not sending the Bible study podcast to non believers, but what is brilliant about Morgan and Leslie's podcast is it is. It is so deep. It is so Christlike and God honoring, but it is also a great listen for people that are not there yet.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:09]:
But are very accessible to not to non Christians. And we have a lot of non Christian listeners too. And that doesn't mean that we avoid the truth of what God says. But we handle it with lots of humor and fun and light heartedness and it's. It's good for non Christians too. It's a great point.
Dena Davidson [00:40:24]:
Well, Morgan, so grateful that you joined us. Thanks for having me, Gina. I'm so glad to have you. This is like the greatest callback to.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:31]:
The first season, honestly. Kick Curt off. This is the pod. This is it from now on. This is good.
Dena Davidson [00:40:36]:
I won't tell him you said that.
Morgan May Treuil [00:40:37]:
But if he's watch this, I'm just joking. Curt, we love you.
Dena Davidson [00:40:40]:
This is your we love you so much Curt. But here's the deal. We would love for you to share this episode and then next week we're going to have Kevin Thompson back. He was in the previous episode, so he is one of our incredible communicators here at Bayside and Acts 21. It like it seriously heats up. So you are going to want to dive deep into what happens on the next chapter of the Bible study podcast.