Curt Harlow [00:00:00]:
Hello, my friend, and welcome to the Bible study pod. I just want to say I got a lot of people that can be on this podcast from the Bayside universe, you know, some of the best teachers. I'm not just bragging on Bayside, it's really true. But I got my two favorites here today. We got the power team for a very wonderful, poignant part of Acts chapter 20. So if you're not driving, open up your Bible to Acts chapter 20. And before we do that, who are you, young lady, across from me or.
Dena Davidson [00:00:28]:
I am Dena Davidson and I run Thrive College, which is an internship program here at Bayside.
Curt Harlow [00:00:33]:
Yeah. So if you're familiar with the podcast, Dena's usually helping me or taking over when I cannot be here. And then we have everyone's favorite author and marriage pastor.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:42]:
That's exactly right. Kevin Thompson, host of Bayside's favorite podcast, Change the Odds.
Dena Davidson [00:00:46]:
That's right.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:47]:
Marriage and family are never meant to be a game of chance.
Curt Harlow [00:00:48]:
I could feel Leslie and Morgan getting upset that you said that, but I'm going to agree. It's such a great and practical podcast. You got to check it out. All right, let's get right to it. Acts chapter 20. We're in the end of the chapter where this. After a lot of, like, going back and forth and visiting this city and that city and the other city, Paul ends up in a place called Miltus. And if you've never heard of it, join the club.
Curt Harlow [00:01:13]:
Welcome to the club. It's on the Asia Minor side of the Mediterranean. It's not on the Greek peninsula where Paul's been most of his second missionary journey. And he's there because. Because he's trying to figure out a way to say goodbye to his really wonderful and close friends, the leaders of the Ephesus Church. And he can't. It's about a 16 hour walk from Miltus to Ephesus. And so he goes past, he sells past Ephesus because it's just too chaotic, too dangerous there.
Curt Harlow [00:01:42]:
And he sends for the leaders and they have this. This beautiful kind of, we don't know if we'll ever see each other again. Meeting and here, here it is. Verse 32, chapter 20. Paul says, Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among those who are sanctified. I have not coveted anyone's silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that with these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions in everything I Did I showed you that by his. By this kind of hard work, we must help the weak.
Curt Harlow [00:02:24]:
Remembering the words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself, it is more blessed to give than to receive. When Paul had finished speaking, he knelt down with all of them and prayed. They all wept as they embraced him and kissed him. What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship. Dena Davidson, here on the Bible study pod. As always, we're interested in correct hermeneutical procedures and correct exegetical outcomes. In other words, what does the passage mean? What has it always meant? What is the right, smart and godly way to look at this? What are your observations on this very poignant and emotional moment for the Apostle Paul and these leaders?
Dena Davidson [00:03:13]:
Yeah, well, Luke is recording history and he's recording history for a purpose. So I think about the people, the first people to read the book of Acts or have Acts read to them. And it's, you know, the church everywhere is getting to benefit from Acts and they're reading this story of a behind the scenes moment of what's going on between the leaders of the church, which I think is really incredible because we're all, we're all wondering if you're sitting in the pews or you're sitting just as a normal attendee of a church or even maybe someone who volunteering at church. But you're not, as I would say, like on the inside, you're not part of the group of people that's carrying the load of spiritually pastoring the flock. You get a behind the scenes look and you see, oh, it's not this terrible underbelly. It's not what we often come to expect at a church, right, where there's so much division. It's, you know, this person trying to knock other person down. Power struggles and unhealth and hypocrisy.
Dena Davidson [00:04:13]:
No, here we have a profound picture of health in the New Testament church. It is the leaders that Paul discipled and he passed the church to and they're weeping that they're never going to see him again. So I see first and foremost Luke is recording this history for a reason. You're going to read all through Acts, you're going to read all through the New Testament stories. Moments of hypocrisy in the church, moments of unhealth, moments where the leaders were having this power struggle. But here is a picture, I think, of what the church is meant to look like, where the leaders are loving on the other leaders and they are sad that there's going to be this separation. So to me that's the first thing that stands out.
Curt Harlow [00:04:55]:
It's pretty much like every time you teach the thrive students this happens right at the end of our thrive cause.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:03]:
This, they kneel down and weep.
Curt Harlow [00:05:04]:
Whoa, Tina, I love you so much. Okay, Kevin, I know you got some prepared remarks but I want to ask you question and I totally agree with D Nik Here we are getting this special moment that's meant to set a bar for us on what it means to be a biblical leader. It's definitely meant to set a bar for us. But I'm struck just from your background and what you do so well. This is a bunch of men having a very emotionally honest, free moment. And you get the feeling that the amazing part of this is not that they kissed each other and cried and you get the. You get the feeling this is a part of who they normally were. This isn't like just one occasion.
Curt Harlow [00:05:48]:
They were heartfelt people. Why is it that guys in our culture are not this way? Is it just us? Is this just recent that we think maleness and emotional vulnerability don't go together? Or has it been a problem throughout all history and these Christians were better at it? What's your opinion on that?
Kevin Thompson [00:06:09]:
Think in our western culture, obviously it's not nearly as accepted for men to show emotion. There's really only two places that men are allowed to show emotion. We're allowed to show anger and whatever the context. And then we're allowed to be emotional with sports. And so at ball games. Right. All those kind of things.
Curt Harlow [00:06:25]:
Often anger in sports for my teams, they come together as a Seahawks fan.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:29]:
Cowboys fan, they go together, there's no question. So there is that element. Part of me wonders in reading this that this does seem so foreign to my own experience. But you know who this isn't foreign to their experience and that is our friends who have served their country, who have gone to battle and their lives have been on the line and they're fighting for a very important mission that has come with a high cost. And then you can see all these years later these reunions are still filled with this emotion. I wonder how much of it is the idea that Curt specifically for men, that we are not fighting a mission with a high cost and then we're not linking arms in this life giving way that actually causes this emotion to be evoked. And so is it possible that an absence of emotion in the midst of everything else. No doubt, culture, all those kind of things, our own inability to recognize emotion.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:25]:
Is it also a sign we're not really giving our lives for something that matters?
Curt Harlow [00:07:30]:
So you're, you're saying we are too much in the man cave and not enough in the foxhole?
Kevin Thompson [00:07:35]:
Very possible. Very possible.
Curt Harlow [00:07:36]:
I, I really. My, my great uncle, Uncle George has, was a tank first mechanic, then he drove a tank in World War II. And everyone in, he was in part of Patton's army. Everyone in his platoon was completely different. All parts of America, all different backgrounds. He loved them till the day he died. If you talked about them, he would cry. If he met them, he would cry.
Curt Harlow [00:08:04]:
And there were there a bond happened in that foxhole that was undoable. We are not, we're not in the foxhole.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:12]:
And also think we underplay the chaos in Ephesus.
Curt Harlow [00:08:17]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:18]:
So we kind of. Oh well, he's been in a lot of riots. He's been a lot. And, and we probably even underplay those because we don't experience them. But there was something here. I mean, don't forget we've said, I think on previous episodes, this is the Apostle Paul. I mean we're talking about somebody with a boldness with. He probably was a little bit sharp with his critique, not holding it back so much.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:37]:
And at the end of the letter to Ephesus, he's going to ask them twice to pray for him that he would not be afraid, that he would be fearless.
Curt Harlow [00:08:44]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:44]:
And so this is. He went through something here and they went through it together. That I think we're seeing the byproduct of that.
Curt Harlow [00:08:51]:
So, you know, this is a, this is right into the Bible study pod mode. You've brought this up in the past. The cross referencing with the epistles is so critical here because you can get in like, let's say you're doing your normal American Christian thing and you're reading 10 verses or one chapter of Acts a day and you can get into another riot, another riot, another riot or another riot. Something different happened in Ephesus. We know that both by kind of how Ephesus dominates the narrative from the first missionary journey into now the second one. But also the pressure and emotional stress that Paul writes about in the book of Ephesus. And it's such a great point. You, you know, I used to, I used to, when I was first Christian, I'd open up my big niv study Bible and it would have all this cross references and I would look one or two of them go, I just got to read the Bible.
Curt Harlow [00:09:48]:
This is too much. But there is a Place where, when you start getting comfortable of going, where is this passage connected to? It really? Absolutely comes alive.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:00]:
Even as Wesley in chapel today, he made the reference for us that's right.
Curt Harlow [00:10:05]:
Here, Bayside, we have a Chapel that.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:08]:
2 Corinthians. Now he's referencing back to Acts 19, 2nd Corinthians 1:8. We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experience in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired for life itself. And so that, that now is giving you an insight to the emotion that's, that's behind here.
Curt Harlow [00:10:32]:
Yeah. I want to talk about kissing for a second. Here's my exegetical look at this is, you know, Paul says, we have the old one, another commands. Laelish commands of the New Testament. Love one another, forgive one another, accept one another, carry one another's burdens. They, they go on and on and on. And it's this beautiful theme. Peter does it too, John does it too.
Curt Harlow [00:10:55]:
But mostly Paul going, if you respond to the grace of God, this is how you do it with each other. And here's the one that I think makes us stumble in our culture, and that is Paul's second favorite exhortation. My favorite place where it's mentioned is Romans 16:16. Greet one another with a holy kiss.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:15]:
I'm out.
Curt Harlow [00:11:16]:
Exactly. Well, I mean, I have to say, I love you, I respect you. I'm glad to be a teammate with you. Do not want to kiss you.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:25]:
Not at all.
Curt Harlow [00:11:25]:
Not at all.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:26]:
An occasional hug. I'm okay with.
Curt Harlow [00:11:28]:
Yes, yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:29]:
Good.
Curt Harlow [00:11:29]:
And, and here's the good news of that. The Greek connotation of that, it's not necessarily having to do with lip to lip or lip to cheek even. It is like. It is the bear hug, it is the embrace, it is the. I'm, I'm, I'm so glad you're here. I wonder, as Paul writes these exhortations, if this scene comes to his mind. If, if, if this idea of the times he showed up in Ephesus so hard fought and entered the room after, you know, risking his life. And these very men he's now weeping with put their arms around him and said, we got your back.
Curt Harlow [00:12:08]:
We love you. And someone made this comment today in sermon prep, and I think it's so good they don't say, and we'll miss your teaching.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:15]:
Ye point. Yeah, that was Brandon.
Curt Harlow [00:12:17]:
Yeah, it is such a great point because Paul's teaching was fierce. I mean, Paul's Teaching is two thirds of our New Testament. I'll miss your face. Yeah, I'll miss your face. So, okay, I have this friend, and every time this issue of kissing comes up, I always think of this. She was a kindergarten teacher, and she's in, like, her third year, and one night, her and her husband Kelly and I were having dinner together, and she's talking about how challenging it is to control a kindergarten classroom. So I said, well, what do they train you? What do they do? What do they help you? She said, well, the most effective thing that they gave me was the hula hoop technique. I'm like, oh, sounds fascinating.
Curt Harlow [00:12:56]:
What's the hula hoop technique? And I've probably preached in 20 states because of this illustration. So she said, I have a group of hula hoops in my classroom, and at one point in the day, I make every child go get a hula hoop. And they have to walk around the classroom and they have to say, this is my space. You can't sit in this space. You can't reach over this space. Because, you know, kindergarten kids that have not had a lot of classroom socialization, they'll sit right on top of each other, not even think of it. And this is not a great way to learn how to write and your colors is when another kid's sitting on you. And I thought, it's a wonderful classroom technique, but probably sticks with us into adulthood far more than it should.
Curt Harlow [00:13:42]:
Like when are the moments we drop the huli hoop, we let someone step over our hula hoop, we step over their hula hoop and we go. We are. This is far more important than friendship. The standard of biblical fellowship is not we're good friends and I'm friendly to you. It's we weep together, we hug, we. Your face will create great emotion. If I believe that's the last time I'll see it before here in eternity. So, again, to your point, Dena, I think it is setting this emotional watermark for us that says if we're afraid to get there, maybe we need to re examine what we think.
Curt Harlow [00:14:29]:
The biblical level of friendship or fellowship is the other example I'll give. And then you guys jump in here because I'm already doing what I do, talk too much. I went to Argentina for three summers in a row when I was first in the ministry, and we brought about 20 students down there. We helped the Argentine Church in Buenos Aires build their facility brick by brick, literally. And the beautiful thing about the Argentines is they take this. This greet one another with a holy kiss. They Take it seriously. They take it seriously.
Curt Harlow [00:14:55]:
And so every time you show up, whether it's to do some physical labor or to come to church, whatever reason, everyone, and I mean everyone, young, old, male, female, elderly males with whiskers, other elderly people with whiskers, they will kiss you on both cheeks. Just. And when you first get there, the missionaries tell you, listen, if you draw back from this, they will be insulted.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:22]:
Wow.
Curt Harlow [00:15:23]:
They'll think you think that you're better than them. So you got to get over your American ness and lean in and embrace them back. So we dutifully did it, although it was not comfortable for me and I didn't like it. Then after about a week, we were there for like 21 days. After about a week, I got more comfortable with it. And after about 15 days, I was like, this is biblical. We are going to take this, but I'm taking this back to my church.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:46]:
But you don't.
Curt Harlow [00:15:47]:
That's it. Thank you. I walk in the first Sunday and I wasn't pastoring this church. I was just, you know, leading a student group on the local campus. I walk in, I get ready to go hug a bunch of my church friends and I go to the first one. I'm like, not gonna do it. It's not gonna happen. Which all goes to say, you know, I'm sure we'll get the judgment seat of Christ and this will not be the biggest issue in my life Christ will bring up.
Curt Harlow [00:16:14]:
But there is a. I think we rob ourselves from the true blessing of fellowship available to us. By, number one, not really getting in the foxhole. And by number two, not really setting the emotional standard high enough. You know what would happen if I loved you so much that tears came to my eyes if we were to depart? Well, I guess I bet you what would happen is I'd also forgive you as I've been forgiven. I'd probably accept you as I've been accepted. I would probably help carry your burdens with you and let you lift some of my burdens. I would probably restore you gently if you needed restoration, being diligent that I was not caught in the very same sin.
Curt Harlow [00:16:58]:
All of those one another commands would probably come into play if I let myself love you at the greet you with a kiss level.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:05]:
And there probably is a cost that we're paying in that. I mean, we talk about this in married life is human beings are created and the only defense mechanism we have are relationships. So a shark has teeth, right? A bee has a stinger. The only thing we have is Relationships. And so I wonder how much of it is we were actually created to be in physical proximity of one another. And it's a little bit unnatural actually for us to be so uncomfortable with the physical contact, even to such an extent. In married life, one thing we talk about all the time is for husbands and wives in a non sexual way to leverage each other's bodies to bring your blood pressure down. That if you embrace for longer than just a quick hug, but actually embrace for 30 seconds, for 60 seconds, your blood pressure comes down, your heart's getting synced, there's a unity that is then found.
Curt Harlow [00:17:54]:
I'm going to get off two medications.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:56]:
Today, Let Kelly know. But I wonder how much there is a cost that we are paying. Is it interesting that the higher our anxiety has gotten, the further away physically we have gotten as well? And that conceivably the God has put in place an aspect that we're supposed to calm each other in a non sexual way, but with this physical presence that we just simply don't have in our culture.
Curt Harlow [00:18:19]:
Well, part of the cost of the hypersexuality of culture is that we do lose relational, affirming, normal, healthy touch. We do lose the. You know, I had an 8th grade teacher who was a great track coach. And I remember after one brutal loss where I trained really hard and tried my best, and he gave me a hug and said, you know what? I saw what you did out there. Couldn't do it today. Yeah, wouldn't happen and. And probably shouldn't. Given where our culture has gone.
Curt Harlow [00:18:53]:
I'm not saying it's even why. It's just sad. You know, I often say this to the thrive students. Dena, you've heard me say this. The opposite of physical, sexual sin. The opposite of sexual sin is not Amish ism. It's not no relationship. It's not abstaining to the point where I'm a rock, I'm an island, and a rock feels no pain.
Curt Harlow [00:19:17]:
The opposite of the unhealthy, sinful act is healthy, normal, wholesome, God honoring, loving you more than myself relationship. And I see a lot in our thrive students where they will do exactly what you're talking about, Kevin. They'll. In an effort to stay above board, they will, they'll just, you know, if you say, hey, you guys, all 10 of you go bowling together, oh my God, we couldn't do it. Oh, we'll have to be in a room together. Well, no one will talk. It's loud, it's, come on, just go bowling. Someone might think I like someone.
Dena Davidson [00:19:54]:
So heaven forbid, I think I actually get a front row seat to seeing a healthy version of this, like, early in the year with the Thrive College students. It's exactly like that. They're so awkward around each other.
Curt Harlow [00:20:06]:
But it's the Bayside Internship Program, by the way. Dean and I have a lot of illustrations because we love this group and speak to them often.
Dena Davidson [00:20:12]:
But yeah, so it's a bunch, like, in the early in the year, it's a bunch of like, I don't know you. I'm very uncomfortable with you. You're not cool. Like, I am cool. So it's. Everyone's just like, got their whole social structure set. Then by the end of the year, like this time in February, the social structure has been absolutely level. The most uncool, didn't know how to hold a conversation.
Dena Davidson [00:20:33]:
Is at the same level as a person who's like, I was the coolest kid in my high school. It's leveled. And they're walking in and they're not awkward around each other. And all the guys. That's funny. You guys say that. Like, all the guys are hugging. I see grown men, like, crying.
Dena Davidson [00:20:48]:
I don't know if you count them as fully grown men, but they're on their way to fully grown men. They're in tears regularly, like in worship. So I feel like I get a front row seat to seeing what happens when you are on mission together and you have that openness towards expressing that physically. And it's so interesting you bring that up about married couples and the unhealth that we've lost out, the health that we've lost out on. Because I think about the single person, the single person in our church, they will go like a year, two years without ever being touched. And every study out there, psychologically, this is one of the worst things that a human being could experience, is never being touched in a. In a healthy, safe way. So what would it look like? I think one of the questions from this passage, what would it look like for the church to reclaim this? And unfortunately, the church has been on the wrong side of this often, but what would it look like for the church to reclaim physicality as a place of health and safety and good intimacy?
Curt Harlow [00:21:47]:
Yeah. Okay. I got one more theological question, then we'll get to. How we always send this podcast is application. But it starts out here, verse 32. Now, I commit to God. I commit you to God, which is very interesting. Paul definitely wants them to be God, to be the author of everything in their life.
Curt Harlow [00:22:07]:
And not that's I commit you to the continuing ministry of Paul International. But here's the phrase I find really interesting and very cool and to the word of his grace. Now, he can't be referring to the New Testament collection of epistles and gospels because it's not been written and circulated quite yet. It's in the infancy stages of that happening. What is he referring to? What is the word of his grace?
Dena Davidson [00:22:35]:
I think it's the oral tradition. I think he did not have the written Scriptures yet, but there was this oral tradition of what Jesus said that had been deposited in his disciples, both the 11 and then the 120 that had been with him through all stages of his ministry. They heard Jesus's teaching, they walked with him, and then they were going out and they were sharing it. So there was, before we ever got the written scriptures, there was this oral tradition that existed. And I think that is what Paul is referencing.
Curt Harlow [00:23:06]:
Okay, so let the record show that I did not coach Dena on what answer I was looking for here. We did not talk about this ahead of time, but it's absolutely correct. Correct. I think what he's talking about here is exactly what happens in the first half of this chapter, which Paul starts at lunch and goes till dawn. And in the middle, we have a kid fall out of the window and Paul prays for him and he resurrects.
Dena Davidson [00:23:29]:
Just like an intermission.
Curt Harlow [00:23:32]:
Paul is desperate with this group of believers to teach him all of the gospel, all of the gospel, everything that has been revealed to him, everything the apostles have given him. Two thumbs up on said, you got the real teaching of Jesus.
Dena Davidson [00:23:45]:
He what if he was like chapter six of the Sermon on the Mount when the kid died? He's like, you gotta come back for chapter seven, right? Like you gotta hear this.
Curt Harlow [00:23:53]:
That's why they, after the kid thing, he goes reassemble.
Dena Davidson [00:23:56]:
Yes. We're not done yet.
Curt Harlow [00:23:57]:
We're not done yet. So the early church fathers called this the rule of faith. The rule of faith, which means the urgency in the apostles to not deviate and to teach others to not deviate from the message of Jesus. I think the word of his grace is that it. It's the. It's the preserved testimony of the teaching of Jesus Christ and what it means to be authentic follower of Jesus and what it doesn't mean to be authentic follower of Jesus and is the roots of, and the of what we have in scripture today. Kevin, what would you add to that? You've got more degrees than me. Not as many as Dena.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:41]:
So I Think you're absolutely right. I do wonder if possibly it is just a more generic term of the totality of the message of Jesus. So, no doubt the oral tradition, but you go into Ephesians 3, where he prays for them and he prays, and I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power together with all the Lord's holy people to grasp how wide, how long, how high, and how deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpass its knowledge that you may be filled up to the measure of the fullness of God. And so here he's talking about now the grace that's going to lead to an inheritance that's going to build them up. And so I can't help but think that it is the oral tradition, but ultimately grace and gospel in Paul's eyes are just these interchangeable words.
Curt Harlow [00:25:30]:
Yeah. So I 100% agree that once you start opening your heart and mind up to doing what you just did, which is. Where can I see the rule of faith being lived out by the apostles in the New Testament? It's everywhere. Paul especially, because in his own words, as one abnormally born, I think the worry of the guys in Jerusalem was, is this guy really got the real gospel? And then he comes in there like you did. Jesus really did reveal himself.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:59]:
It's the same worry y'all had when I came here. You're like, does he. Is does he really? I don't know.
Curt Harlow [00:26:04]:
I would say. I would say the first half a year, maybe not. And then you start coming on board. But so Paul says this. Follow me as I follow Christ. So when I first read that as a young Christian, I was like, how an arrogant thing to say. He's like, he's got it all. And then in the context of the rule of faith, he's like, no, follow what the apostles have established as the teaching of Jesus as I do it, because you don't want you to vary.
Curt Harlow [00:26:32]:
And then he says in Corinthians, what was given to me, I now give to you. In Timothy, he says, entrust reliable witnesses who entrust all reliable witnesses who entrust reliable witnesses, and on and on and on, once your eyes get open to it, which counterminds the criticism of the New Testament that of course, the apostles didn't care about this. And so it was immediately being edited and changed, and even the very scurrilous and very popular right now teaching that Christianity isn't about Jesus is about the Apostle Paul and how he took it and made it his own Message, which I think is intellectual suicide, is intellectual suicide. Okay, let's get to application. Dena, what should we do about this? We got a bunch of church leaders crying and loving each other because Paul gave them the real gospel. What should we. What should you and I do about it?
Dena Davidson [00:27:24]:
Holy kisses, obviously. No, I think I'm going to say this because I think it's harder for Kevin and Curt to say this because you are in the senior pastor roles at our campuses. But I'm not. So I'll say this. I think one of the things that's on display that we really gotta check in our heart in the 21st century is whether we have an affectionate or a critical spirit of our pastor. I will confess, sometimes I go and I sit in the Granite Bay campus, and I am not there to pray for Mark. I'm not there to pray for Kevin. I'm not there to receive from them and to pray for the people to receive.
Dena Davidson [00:28:06]:
I'm there to see, is this their best service?
Kevin Thompson [00:28:08]:
Does he screw this up or not? That's what you were thinking Sunday.
Dena Davidson [00:28:11]:
That's right. Sunday.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:12]:
Screw this up or not.
Dena Davidson [00:28:12]:
Third row. Let's see how Kevin does with it.
Curt Harlow [00:28:14]:
That's the curse of your IQ right there.
Dena Davidson [00:28:17]:
And it's just so. It's so wrong. There is nothing Christlike in. In that attitude. But that's. That's how it is these days. We. We go church shop.
Dena Davidson [00:28:27]:
And if our pastor doesn't say it exactly like we like it said, and if he doesn't say exactly what we need him to say.
Curt Harlow [00:28:35]:
Yeah. If he's talking to someone else other than me, how dare he?
Dena Davidson [00:28:38]:
Exactly. Or he's not talking to them and he needs to address it then.
Curt Harlow [00:28:41]:
Right, right, right.
Dena Davidson [00:28:42]:
And. And there is not a spirit of love and prayer and spiritual, I would say, like sonship and daughtership, that runs in the church these days. And that is so antithetical to this passage. This passage shows that these men who themselves had the Holy Spirit, had put themselves under Paul's leadership. And. And they were there to honor Paul and to receive their mission from him. And so I think this is a gut check for you and for I. When I show up to church on Sunday, am I there to root for my pastor? Am I there to cheer him on? Am I there to pray for him that the Holy Spirit would guard what he says and guard what he does so that he can pastor the flock? Because that's not my position.
Dena Davidson [00:29:27]:
It's his position, but it's my position to pray and to make sure that I'm doing everything in my power to help him do his job well. So I just think that's a gut check.
Curt Harlow [00:29:38]:
Very kind of you to say that about us. I would say we as pastors, lead pastors, whatever you want to call it, should have the same attitude about other pastors, too. Oftentimes it's easy to see the fault in another church, another group, another congregation, and have blind spots, or instead of having great affection for them. It's very good, Kevin, how you apply this stuff.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:01]:
I look at this passage and I think it's the old prophets. I'll probably misquote them, but I think it was boys to men who said, it's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday. And that's really what's going on here, is Paul is ending a season of ministry, and he can't go to where God wants him to go unless he's willing to leave this behind. And yet there is such affection for people, for the experience and all those things. And my thought goes back to the great kind of prince of preaching, professors, Haddon Robinson. He would talk about in ordination, the question he would always ask young seminary students before they were ordained, after they were asked all the great theological questions, and what do you think about the resurrection? What's your eschatology and soteriology and all those things. He would then save his question for last, and it would be this, do you love people? And it sounds like the dumbest question ever, because you're like, well, yeah, what are you doing here if you don't? And yet how easy is it for me to love preaching and to love pastoring and to love church leadership and to love all these things. Podcasts, podcasting.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:11]:
Absolutely. Writing, and yet not love people. And here you have an example. If anybody had a right to not love the people at Ephesus, it was the Apostle Paul, especially on top of what his mission was, he could just fly in, I'm here to do the mission and I'm going to move on. But to him, the mission and the people were so intertwined, they were inseparable. So the idea that you don't love people means you actually don't believe in the mission. And so this, to me is a great conviction.
Curt Harlow [00:31:40]:
Or the gospel.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:41]:
Or the gospel, absolutely. You haven't been touched by his grace. And so this, to me is a great reminder of there are seasons of ministry. We're all interim pastors. There are seasons of ministry, and as they come to an end, if it does not grieve your heart over the Loss of this season changing. You probably have not loved people well, and let's make sure we're loving people well along the way.
Curt Harlow [00:32:02]:
I just think about someone listening to this podcast expecting to gain some academic knowledge on a passage which is a part of our purpose. And just hearing you say that, Kevin, and going, I need to move on. And it won't be hard. I had an old friend, Sam Huddleston, I'll tell you who it was. He said, kurt, no one wants to plan a funeral, but sometimes we just have to plan a funeral. And wow. Okay. I want to touch on the verse that we have not touched on, which is as an application, which is interesting because it's the quote from Jesus in this passage.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:35]:
Well, we're not taking it off, but here's.
Curt Harlow [00:32:36]:
Here's my little application thought on this. It is. Paul tells us that Jesus said directly, it is more blessed to give than to receive. Now, what do you think of immediately when we quote that? Finances, the way pastors love to teach. That is, it's finances. And certainly that is not wrong, but it is so limiting to what it means, especially in this context. What did Paul give here?
Kevin Thompson [00:33:03]:
His life.
Curt Harlow [00:33:05]:
And he's rewarded, he's blessed by this deep, satisfying. And all the research tells us the only thing that actually brings us real happiness, which is relationship. So I guess my application thought was, you know, give yourself over to great relationship. You know, really take some risks and. And it's gonna hurt. Expect it. But that's the blessing. That's part of it is the blessing.
Curt Harlow [00:33:33]:
And, you know, I would hope every single person studying this passage or listening would get to end of a season in their life and say, I don't know what I got right. I've got a lot of things wrong. But I do have people in my life that have loved me very well because I've given, I've invested. I gave everything I had to give, and then in return, I was blessed far beyond what I could ask or imagine. So that's good. Always good. It's always quickly to the 30 minute mark, the 33 minute mark. If I'm being honest here, looking at the clock, I want to tell you, thank you so much for listening.
Curt Harlow [00:34:08]:
Would you please spread the word? Man, this thing is growing. You guys, you're doing such a great job. But wouldn't you agree with us, everyone needs to get into Bible study. So please share and like and go to the Bayside or the Thrive Network. Of all the podcasts, you're gonna find a lot of great stuff there's. A good variety, leadership, more biblical content, marriage content like Kevin has. So definitely check that out. We have Jason Cain coming for Acts chapter 21.
Curt Harlow [00:34:37]:
Why are we gonna be in Acts chapter 21? Because we were just in 20. We're just verse by verse, thought by thought. You don't want to miss Jason King. He always says at least one thing that I disagree with as it's coming out of his mouth and end up agreeing with it as he finishes the thought. So you got to want to listen for that and just see where his unique perspective pastoring a church here in Northern California comes from. So don't miss next week. Dena, you'll be with us for that. Is that correct? All right.
Curt Harlow [00:35:04]:
Me, Dena and Jason next time. Thanks for tuning in. Like, follow and encourage someone else to listen to this podcast.